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| The 9/11 Commission's Report Card; We Fail | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 4 2005, 06:15 PM (1,219 Views) | |
| John D'Oh | Dec 5 2005, 06:59 AM Post #26 |
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MAMIL
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I actually said all the fanatics 'in the vicinity'. It would have been more accurate to say 'most of the fanatics in the area'. The London Bombers, at least, were English, and so quite a long way from the vicinity of Iraq. To answer some of what JB and others have said, I agree that the situation is extremely complicated, and being overly critical of the Bush administration's handling of post 9-11 is unfair. They have made significant gains against the terrorists in some areas, but there are also weak points. This doesn't mean that I believe Bush hasn't made any mistakes, and may have reasons other than the war on terror for being in Iraq. If someone were to ask me what I would have done if I were Bush on September 12, I'd have phoned up Al Gore and said 'I've found these missing Florida voting slips, want to have a look...?'
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| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| JBryan | Dec 5 2005, 07:01 AM Post #27 |
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I am the grey one
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 5 2005, 07:20 AM Post #28 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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I added numbers to address your points: 1. We took massive steps to take away the terrorists' bank accounts. Already done. To get all the nations to agree to freeze the accounts of other nations is a fantasy. It would take 10 years to arrive at an agreed definition of what constituted harboring or aiding terrorists. 2. Now you've gone from fantasy to wild fantasy. Just how long do you think the world economy continues to roll on without oil from Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran? I guess we'll make it up from Kuwait. Our 'allies' would not even agree to steeper sanctions on Iraq due to their financial interests there. What makes you think they would voluntarily send oil over the $100 a barrel mark? 3. We captured and killed a boatload of them in Afghanistan. Just killed another one the other day. In my view it is probably more ueful to let bin Laden sit on the sidelines, marginalized and ineffective, than to either martyr him or put on a trial that gives him an international forum. And just what would you have done that would have made capturing bin Laden any more likely? Alienate Pakistan? 4. We are doing that every day, sans the Hague. Got anything else? |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Jolly | Dec 5 2005, 07:38 AM Post #29 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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I would submit that you are thinking quite narrowly, yourself. If all the U.S. wanted to do was make sure a secular government was in place in Iraq, then after Sadaam's disposal we hand it over to the next Baathist Sunni flunkie standing in line. The process of instilling a democratic government in the country is a pretty novel idea for the Middle East. This may, or may not stabilize the region - arguments can be made on both sides....personally, I am more of the opinion you treat these folks like the 12th century society that they are, and just hang them off of the castle walls 'till you get what you want. However, if it works (and that is a big if) it might just give a political outlet to some of the more radical elements within the Middle East...ballots, not bullets. I think that is much of the reason for us pushing parlimentary systems, rather than the U.S. version of democracy. In the former, small factions have a better chance of obtaining some small measure of power, hopefully mitigating some of their violent tendacies. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Dec 5 2005, 07:40 AM Post #30 |
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Fulla-Carp
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No need to give you anything else. All you have said is that it would be hard to do these things and we actually might have to sacrifice. Imagine that! Being at war and we might actually might have to do some really hard planning, really hard work, and people might have to be inconvenienced. So much easier to just send in the military, kill tens of thousands, and pretend we are actually doing something substantive. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 5 2005, 07:45 AM Post #31 |
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MAMIL
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Cutting off the oil supplied from the Middle East isn't just hard and inconveniencing, its totally impracticable. We don't import it because we want to, but because we have to. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 5 2005, 07:58 AM Post #32 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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No, Rick, what I said was that you are living in a fantasy world, not that these things would be difficult. The first two especially would be impossible. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Dec 5 2005, 08:22 AM Post #33 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Today they would be impossible. Bush has so fuc*ed up our position in the world we could not get anyone to agree to anything. Hell, we have a Secretary of State now who travels the world not to gain support for an on-going war, but trying to explain away what we are doing and calm down the anger that is aimed at us. Really productive! In the Fall of 2001 and into 2002 we had a window of opportunity in which we could have easily galvanized and rallied the world. We could have done both 1 and 2, indeed all four of them. 100% success? Probably not. But close enough. And we could have done more -- say, removed from the WTO any country harboring and supporting terrorists. Arrested members of the Saudi Royal family that were supporting the wahabi's. Lots of things. But we didn't use the opportunity. Instead, Bush pissed everyone off and insulted our allies, our friends, those closest to us and who we could have relied on. He made the US the country people fear, rather than respect. A country whose actions they want to counter, not whose leadership they want to follow. And here we are today. Nice situation to be in, isn't it? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 5 2005, 08:27 AM Post #34 |
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MAMIL
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It could be a lot worse. Bush may be a bit lacking on the diplomatic front, but America knew that when they elected him. Having said that, I think you're rather overdoing the 'a country to fear' - most of the West may disagree with the US, but they don't actually hate you. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Larry | Dec 5 2005, 08:34 AM Post #35 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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It sure could. We could have had someone in office just as goofy as Rick is who actually tried to do it the way he thinks it should have been done. Nina made the comment that we were fighting the war "conventionally". This is not the case. This isn't a conventional war, and we haven't fought it in the conventional way. Somewhere down the line there are going to be "boots on the ground" no matter how you fight a war. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| QuirtEvans | Dec 5 2005, 09:01 AM Post #36 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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No, I don't have to admit that. If you were paying attention, you'd have noticed several times in the past couple of weeks where either Rick or I praised something the Bush Administration did. I believe that, as recently as a couple of days ago, Rick started a thread saying good things about Bush's honoring of Rosa Parks. Now, if by "here" you mean the war in Iraq, I have to disagree with you on that point as well. I've been very clear that, although I don't think we should have attacked Iraq in the first place, now that we're there we can't afford to leave until we've finished the job. I have said leaving now would be a bad idea, and I have said that I don't think establishing a timetable for leaving is a good idea either. In other words, I agree with the Bush Administration and disagree with most of the Democrats in Congress about whether and when we should leave Iraq. It may serve your purposes to think that we are simply out to criticize the Bush Administration, no matter what, but it's demonstrably not true. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 5 2005, 09:03 AM Post #37 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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We tried to galvanize our allies in 2002... they didn't bite on what they had already agreed to previously.. to make Iraq toe the line. And you think our allies were going to go along with arresting members of the Saudi royal family? You are living in fantasyland, Rick. Come over to the real world. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Larry | Dec 5 2005, 09:09 AM Post #38 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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There have been a couple of times in the past where it appeared that you were at least trying to be fair and intellectually honest. Rick on the other hand never has, and his recent posts "praising" the Bush administration were so obvious a 6 year old could see through it. He was simply laying the groundwork for you or some other Democrat to be able to do what you've just done - point back to it and claim Rick has said nice things about Bush. Both the things he was "nice" about were things that no one would have disagreed with. Just more posturing. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| lb1 | Dec 5 2005, 09:52 AM Post #39 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Quirt, Excuse me, I thought you were the liberal "Sh*t head" that started this and other threads that criticize the administration. lb |
| My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09 | |
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| ivorythumper | Dec 5 2005, 10:05 AM Post #40 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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No need to gripe, Nina -- Hamza Rabia was killed by a Hellfire missile, which is carried by the U.S. Air Force’s unmanned, remote-controlled Predator aircraft. That is hardly a traditional military tactic. A war cannot be entirely prosecuted from afar, and the postmodern war against terrorism is a combination of conventional, technological, intel, and black operations. Your perception is based on the 6 o'clock new, because that's what the people want to see. The ground troops in Iraq are part of the effot, but what they are doing there -- training the Iraqi army, for instance, also does not qualify are traditional military operations. I think they know what they are doing, and the evidence of only just over 2000 casualities for the 19 or 20 months that they been in a hostile situation suggests that I am correct. For a military action, that is unprecedentally low. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 5 2005, 10:12 AM Post #41 |
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MAMIL
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I believe that Gulf War 1 was even lower in terms of Allied casualties. It's worth noting that the '2000' casualties only refers to Americans. There've been a lot more deaths than that. The reason I point this out is that my Vietnamese friend gets very upset when people lament the loss of 52000 lives in that war. It's an understandable mistake, but it's still a mistake. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| ivorythumper | Dec 5 2005, 10:26 AM Post #42 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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1. Did that as best as we could. How are you going to stop China or Switzerland from providing financial harbor to the terrorists? Just say "pretty please?" 2. Given that the French have not been the least bit cooperative with these attempts, this makes NO sense. If the importing countries are not unified - which they ARE NOT -- the countries still willing to trade would be able to stock pile oil for pennies on the dollar while the rest of the countries experienced massive increases. I suspect in the trillions of dollars, not the relatively small $300 billion so far. 3. Do you have some info as to where OBL was, or is? "Just do it" works for selling running shoes, but not for this sort of thing. 4. We have been and are doing it -- how would you expend any portion of the $300 billion to be more effective in this work? Rick -- you struck out with two foul balls and two missed swings. Your plan of action would not be effective in the world order. As much as you wish that we only need to "simply agree" to do something, the complexity of the situation is quite more than your "Gee, gang, let's wage a war on terrorism" Andy Hardy script can handle.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Dec 5 2005, 10:32 AM Post #43 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Oh, I'll criticize the Bush Administration, loudly and often, when I think it's wrong. However, you said ... and I will put the relevant two words in all caps so you can't miss them ... "you have to admit that you two have bitched about EVERY THING that the administration has done here." I haven't. You're wrong. I've given you a rather large explicit example to prove that you're wrong, my current stand on the war. You may not like being wrong, and you may like calling people names, but you're still wrong, and calling people names won't make you any less wrong. It will only make you look petty, foolish, and vindictive. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| The 89th Key | Dec 5 2005, 10:36 AM Post #44 |
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I haven't read this whole thread, but Quirt hasn't "bitched about everything this administration has done". He's a fair guy. |
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| Nina | Dec 5 2005, 11:13 AM Post #45 |
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Senior Carp
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There is clearly a need for conventional military tactics. Whether you agree with the initial premise for the war in Iraq, that is a good example of a place where conventional tactics must be used. But we're flunking the "hearts and minds" war big time, I think. I'm not sure exactly what we should do--I'm a statistician, not a war scholar. However, it seems that there are many humanitarian things we can be doing in the region overall--not just in Iraq. Scholarships, cultural exchanges, educational programs, agriculture subsidies, economic encouragement (as opposed to embargos) may well make it tougher for the US and democracy to be seen as the boogie man. Becoming more culturally aware of Islam. Staying the moral high ground, and stopping Abu Ghraib-type atrocities in their tracks. Not funding secret torture camps. Encouraging more military to learn Farsi or other Arabic languages. I know that all of these things are being done--but not in a large enough way to matter, IMHO. What sorts of things would you all suggest beyond conventional war tactics? and beyond unconventional secret (illegal) tactics like assassination? (BTW, I wouldn't be crying crocodile tears if OBL were assassinated.) Specifically, how would you go about winning the hearts and minds? |
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| JBryan | Dec 5 2005, 11:17 AM Post #46 |
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I am the grey one
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Nina, I'm not sure how you would assess the "hearts and minds" aspect since we hear so little in the media about what is actually going on in Iraq beyond the car bomb or IED du jour. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 5 2005, 11:17 AM Post #47 |
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MAMIL
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There's an old cliche about American never losing a war, and never winning a peace. Arguably, neither statement is true, but it is something worth thinking about, particularly in the current situation. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| lb1 | Dec 5 2005, 11:59 AM Post #48 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Quirt, You may approve of Bush sparing the life of the White House Thanksgiving turkey, or honoring Rosa Parks, but you are still a liberal sh*t head. I spent 8 hours on a plane yesterday sitting beside a Seargent in the Army Rangers who was on "her" way to Iraq, she had just had leave after a tour in Afganistan. We talked about your ilk, and sh*t head would have been a compliment to what she thinks about you. We said a prayer together and I gave her a Rosary to carry with her. lb |
| My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09 | |
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| ivorythumper | Dec 5 2005, 12:29 PM Post #49 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Dec 5 2005, 12:32 PM Post #50 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Ah, another splendid example of someone filled with the holiday spirit. If it weren't the holiday season, I'd tell you that you're a brainless, vile conservaturd. Too bad that I can't say that during the holiday season. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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4:51 PM Jul 10