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| The 9/11 Commission's Report Card; We Fail | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 4 2005, 06:15 PM (1,214 Views) | |
| QuirtEvans | Dec 4 2005, 06:15 PM Post #1 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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From CNN. The former chairman and vice-chairman of the 9/11 commission warned Sunday that the nation is ill-prepared for another terrorist attack. * * * Tom Kean, the Republican chairman of the committee, told NBC's "Meet the Press" that enacting the changes is "not a priority for the government right now. "A lot of the things we need to do really to prevent another 9/11 just simply aren't being done by the president or by the Congress. "What we're concerned about now is that these recommendations -- four years, more than four years after 9/11, are still not being done. People are not paying attention to them." http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/04/911.commission/index.html |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Dec 4 2005, 07:50 PM Post #2 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you! Bush and his apologists have assured us that the war in Iraq was all we needed to make us safe. Even as some of us have argued that money could have been better spent securing things here at home, we have been shown pictures of happy Iraqi children as proof of how safe we have become. Now we find out that Bush's policies have not made us any safer at all! What a surprise! |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| lb1 | Dec 4 2005, 09:29 PM Post #3 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I agree that there is a lot more that we could be doing to protect ourselves at home. But doesn’t the fact that it has been 4 years without another attack here tell you something. We took the fight to them, in Iraq and Afghanistan we are fighting the terrorist, in the U.S. we are fighting liberals. I don’t see much difference in who we are fighting, we have just found that the domestic terrorist are tougher. Rick and quirt, you have to admit that you two have bitched about every thing that the administration has done here. lb |
| My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09 | |
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| Larry | Dec 4 2005, 09:31 PM Post #4 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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One thing we could do to make it safer here at home, and in Iraq too for that matter - duct tape the mouths on these leftist pacifist nimrods so they'll shut the hell up. I'm sick of hearing your stupid views. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Dec 4 2005, 09:38 PM Post #5 |
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Fulla-Carp
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No, it doesn't. How long was it between the first attack on the WTC and the second? Seven years? Haven't the experts told us that it takes years to plan a major attack? Haven't Bush and his buddies also told us another attack is likely because we can't stop all of them? Then why haven't they done more to at least try to minimize such attacks? I guess they decided that since we can't stop all of them there was no reason to try to stop any of them. But damn! $300 Billion could have done a lot of stuff over here. Although, I really am happy that we have apparently eliminated all the insugents in Iraq. Now we just have to go after those pesky rejectionists! |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| The 89th Key | Dec 4 2005, 10:31 PM Post #6 |
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Rick, stop being so selfish. People in Iraq are the same as people here. We have liberated two countries, caught Saddam, and well I'm tired of giving you all this good news over and over. We will never be 100% safe, just as we'll never 100% win in the war on terror. We can try and make things better and safer, and by taking the war to the terrorists and basically showing them that they cant run free anymore was an important and necessary step in making the WORLD a safer place. Certain extreme liberals (like Rick, not John) are doing this country a disservice by not thinking out their positions and looking at the long term. By using politics as a way to spread their anti-american agenda. By not opening their minds to all possibilities and angles on this war on terror. Many people here have looked at the facts and made their judgements accordingly. Some support the war, some dont, some supported the initial decision to go to war, some dont, but those who use their brains for half a second, will realize that making such idiotic comments, like you make Rick, are doing a disservice to this country and the fight against terrorism. You probably don't realize it nor ever could. You are the same as the people who supported spreading the story about Abu-Grahib. Can't figure that one out? Well...then there's no hope. I'm not making John out to be a saint, because we all know that he and I disagree, but he at least approaches this situation with tact, intelligence, reason, and logic. You should read a chapter from his book. Sure, Bush could be doing more...but we all know you would blindly and by default critize any move he makes. I can't even imagine what the USA and the world would be like (and the situation we would be in) if a weenie liberal like Kerry or Dean were in the Oval Office. |
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| Nina | Dec 5 2005, 05:22 AM Post #7 |
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Senior Carp
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That is pretty much my gripe with the current administration. They have tried to win the war against terror using more or less traditional military tactics. A war with infantry, boots on the ground, find a (single) enemy (Saddam, very little ergs are going in to Afghanistan, al Qaeda or finding OBL), prisoner of war camps, etc. I think that's very narrow thinking. Bush was 100% correct when he said a war on terror was different than any other war we've fought, and we needed to win hearts and minds. But he then proceeded to go down a path that doesn't support the notion. Perhaps the war in Iraq was necessary, but it sure ain't sufficient. My 2c. |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 5 2005, 05:34 AM Post #8 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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So, Nina.. given the state of the world post 9/11/2001.. what would YOU have done? |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 5 2005, 05:38 AM Post #9 |
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MAMIL
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I don't believe that the situation in Iraq is primarily about the 'war on terror', unless you broaden the term 'terrorist' to include those regimes that rule by terror or could at some time attack the US or its allies. The invasion of Afghanistan was a direct response to 9-11, the invasion of Iraq was not, it was touted as a way of preventing Saddam using WMDs against us, and of freeing the Iraqi people. One of my main gripes with going into Iraq at this time is that it is a distraction from the 'war' against extremist Islam. Sure, Saddam could have attacked us, and he can't now, but I think that him doing so whilst in cahoots with bin Laden is unlikely. That being said, getting rid of Saddam does seem to have created a vacuum which has sucked every fanatic in the vicinity towards the general area. This may or may not help the US avoid another mainland attack. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| JBryan | Dec 5 2005, 05:50 AM Post #10 |
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I am the grey one
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Saddam being in cahoots with bin Laden is not so unlikely. Many make the mistake of believing that just because Saddam was secular and bin Laden an Islamacist they could never find common cause. Actually, neither one is entirely Secular or Islamic. There is considerable evidence to show that they were cooperating indeed and, in my view, the belief that the two could not cooperate against a common enemy is not only ahistorical but amounts to wishful thinking. I am glad the Bush Administration never made so strange an assumption. Joseph Stalin would certainly be surprised to hear that cooperation between those of opposite and contending ideologies is impossible since he had one heck of a coooperative venture going with Winston Churchill, a man who hated him every bit as much as bin Laden hates Saddam. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 5 2005, 05:55 AM Post #11 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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From the CNN Article: "Among the failures: Neither Bush nor his predecessor Bill Clinton understood the gravity of the threats posed by terrorists because the leaders could not imagine such attacks. Is it that they could not imagine such an attack, or that they could not anticipate and counter each and every form the attack might take? How do you respond to 'they might attack us'? We WERE working to secure former Soviet nuclear arms and materials, and other WMD. You have to pick a priority or prioirities and go after them, or you will accomplish nothing. This goes for both Clinton and Bush. I do not find it credible that any president would callously dismiss the possibilities for lack of imagination. The CIA was limited in its effort to try to capture al Qaeda founder Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants in Afghanistan by the agency's use of proxies. Armchair quarterbacking. We used proxies in the search because we were looking largely in Pakistan. An enormous US presence there is not going to help Musharraf with a very sensitive domestic situation. It would be a far greater failing to lose Pakistan as an ally. Terrorism was not the top national security concern and missed opportunities to thwart the attack indicate the government's inability to adapt to new challenges. Our government bureacracies do not turn on a dime?!?! Who'da thought that? Silly. There's nothing new or useful in this statement. Name me a major nation that can move that fast. Israel maybe. The failure of the CIA and FBI to communicate with each other -- sometimes because of "legal misunderstandings" -- led to missed "operational opportunities" to hinder or break the terror plot. Steps were taken by the Bush administration to improve communications between the agencies. The CIA did not put 9/11 hijacker Khalid Almihdhar on a "watch list" or notify the FBI when he had a U.S. visa in January 2000 or when he met with a key figure in the USS Cole bombing. And the CIA failed to develop plans to track Almihdhar, or hijacker Nawaf Alhazmi when he obtained a U.S. visa and flew to Los Angeles. Both men were on American Airlines Flight 77 that crashed into the Pentagon. What PRE-9/11 distinguished these men from others that we might have been watching? Making them important because they took part in the attacks is applying hindsight retroactively. The improved communication steps will hopefully improve the situation. The FBI failed to recognize the significance of Almihdhar and Alhazmi's arrival in the United States or the significance of al Qaeda member Zacarias Moussaoui's training and beliefs after his arrest in Minnesota in August 2001. See prior response. I doubt we are missing many of these now, which would indicate we HAVE made changes. In short, I see here, once again, a lot of smoke and no fire. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 5 2005, 06:07 AM Post #12 |
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MAMIL
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I believe that whether the Bush administration did or did not make the assumption that Saddam has strong ties with bin Laden is not clear. To me at least, the administration's full motivation for the Iraqi war is unknown. I don't trust politicians, I never have, and I never will. You're right that a common enemy can make strange bedfellows, and it is conceivable that bin Laden could have supplied bodies to carry out Saddams dirty work, I just think that it was likely that bin Laden would use other suppliers, such as Saudi Arabian contacts. It's not particularly relevant to this discussion, but for the record, in his writings Churchill never really gives the impression that he hated Stalin. They actually seemed to get on quite well on a personal level. In addition, Stalin didn't have any choice as to who is allies were, Hitler made the decision for him with Operation Barbarossa. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| JBryan | Dec 5 2005, 06:21 AM Post #13 |
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I am the grey one
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Possibly I misstated. Churchill hated communism. What he thought of Joe stalin personally is something I really would not want to go into whatever he may have written. Osama bin laden was personna non grata with the Saudis for some time before 9/11. He did have a lot of contacts in Saudi but I doubt they could have been nearly as fruitful as ties with Saddam in terms of securing the types of weapons and training he really wanted. Contacts between bin laden and Hussein have been well documented even if they have been given short shrift by the 9/11 Commission. Stephen Hayes has written much on this topic and has provided quite a bit of evidence in his book titled The Connection : How al Qaeda's Collaboration with Saddam Hussein Has Endangered America. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 5 2005, 06:27 AM Post #14 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Not to mention that the majority of our government and the rest of the world thought Saddam had WMDs, and would be more than willing to farm a few out. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Dec 5 2005, 06:30 AM Post #15 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Exactly. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Dec 5 2005, 06:36 AM Post #16 |
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Fulla-Carp
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If this is the case, how do you explain the attacks in Bali, Madrid, London, Jordan and throughout the rest of the world. Clearly, all the fanatics are NOT being drawn to Iraq. Bush may like us to think that and he may say it over and over again to convince us it is true. But worldwide terrorism is on the incease since 2001 according to US records -- with 2004 (the last year with full records) being the worst. Iraq is not sucking all the terrorists there, it is only sucking all American resources there. Even Bush last week admitted the number of terrorists in Iraq is relatively small and the real people we are fighting are Iraqis who just want us out of there and want to work out their own future. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 5 2005, 06:36 AM Post #17 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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And you would have done....... what? Please share your expertise on stopping global terrorism, given the parameters we had to work with. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| JBryan | Dec 5 2005, 06:42 AM Post #18 |
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I am the grey one
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I'm sorry, I must have missed the troop withdrawal from Afghanistan. last I heard we had quite a few "boots on the ground" there. Of course, we could pull everyone out of Iraq and have them stomping all over the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan but I doubt that would do much more than cause more problems for our relations with Pakistan. The Afghans have not been traditionally keen on a lot of foreigners in their territory either. I see a lot of simplistic thinking here with regard to troop deployments and what they can accomplish. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Dec 5 2005, 06:43 AM Post #19 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Did they think he would farm them out? That was not my impression of what the rest of the world thought. The majority of the world did see the UN inspections as working and holding Hussein at bay. The constant use of all of the countries who believed Hussein had WMD's is really so extemely disengenuous, given the reaction of the US to what our allies and the rest of the world was saying about a premetive war in Iraq. If the pro-war minority in this country is going to rely on the opinion of the rest of the world to justify Bush's folly, they are being extremely selective about the world's opinion, indeed. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Dec 5 2005, 06:45 AM Post #20 |
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Fulla-Carp
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As do I. Like believing that invading, occupying and then imposing a governmental structure on Iraq -- with all the resources, lives and money it is costing us -- will actually place even a dent in terrorism. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| JBryan | Dec 5 2005, 06:46 AM Post #21 |
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I am the grey one
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Bush admitted that the only people we are fighting in Iraq are those who want to work out their own future? I believe you may be paraphrasing him somewhat but if you mean he said there are a bunch of Baathist holdouts determined to shoot their way into power I believe you may be on to something. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| JBryan | Dec 5 2005, 06:47 AM Post #22 |
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I am the grey one
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More simplistic thinking. It is just a kind of knee-jerk thing with you isn't it. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 5 2005, 06:49 AM Post #23 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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JB, it really doesn't matter. No rational alternatives are offered here, just criticism and second-guessing after the fact, as usual. Had we gone into the Afghan/Pakistani border areas full force and captured bin Laden we would have been at fault for being too heavy handed and damging relations with Pakistan. Truly it is written, you cannot win. You make the best decisions you can see at the time, and events unfold as they will. But one thing I do know.. the virulence and hostility of the antiwar movement in this country consistently encourages our enemies that we lack the will as a people to see missions through. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| JBryan | Dec 5 2005, 06:53 AM Post #24 |
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I am the grey one
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They seem to have the same goals as the people we are fighting in Iraq. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Dec 5 2005, 06:58 AM Post #25 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Well jeez, where do we start? How about if we had simply agreed with our allies to freeze any and all financial accounts in the US or any other industrialized country of any government or government offical harboring terrorists until they cracked down on the terrorist organizations and out the terrorists in jail? How about if we had reached agreement with all our allies in the industrialized west to cease all commercial transactions, including the purchase of oil, from Saudi Arabia and other arab countries until they stopped funding, stopped supporting and closed down all of the Islamicist schools of hate in the world? How about if we had quickly broken the momentum and motivation of Al Quaeda by actually capturing bin laden and his buddies? How about if we had used $300 billion (or a portion thereof) to coordinate with our allies the hunting down and capturing of terrorists throughout the world, charging them with crimes against humanity and placing them on trial at The Hague -- very public trials? There are so many things that could have been done immediately after 9/11 when the world was raw and shocked and ready to act. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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