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| Great way to enforce the law; I like it | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 4 2005, 12:46 PM (693 Views) | |
| Steve Miller | Dec 5 2005, 08:59 AM Post #26 |
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Bull-Carp
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(I can't resist) ... and that source would be? |
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Wag more Bark less | |
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| kenny | Dec 5 2005, 08:59 AM Post #27 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Jolly you ask what is my basic source. My brain. Just like you. |
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| Jolly | Dec 5 2005, 09:22 AM Post #28 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Thanks for biting. From where does law come from? Specifically good law? I would submit that the basic tenents of good law come from God. Do not murder. Love thy neighbor. The list goes on. So maybe you are not Christian...maybe Hindu, maybe Buddhist, maybe Muslim. Most of the world's religions still revolve around peace, and doing what is "right" for the common good. People do not suddenly wake up in the morning and pluck some fundamental law from their brain...the idea is simply preposterous. Therefore, the problem arises when conflict occurs between what the state says must be done, and what your belief states must be done. Render unto Caesar...yet Caesar does not control all, even if he condones it. A bad law is a bad law, no matter if it was authored by Caligula, Hitler, or even your present government. One cannot serve both God and mammon. The big question becomes not whether we will obey a bad law, since we won't, but what means we will use to defy it.... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| QuirtEvans | Dec 5 2005, 09:27 AM Post #29 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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We obey laws that we believe are bad all the time. For example, Mark pays his taxes. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 5 2005, 09:29 AM Post #30 |
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MAMIL
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We only disobey laws when we think we can get away with it. Not many people agree on the moral level with stealing, but look at the popularity of illegal music downloads. 'Music should be free' - yeah, right. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| ivorythumper | Dec 5 2005, 10:48 AM Post #31 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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that does not qualify as a "bad law" since it promotes the common good. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Dec 5 2005, 10:51 AM Post #32 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I like your style, Nina. You open with an attractive phrase, "the simplest way", and then propose something that would require reprogramming the psyche of every living human being.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 5 2005, 10:55 AM Post #33 |
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MAMIL
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Isn't that debateable? Right or wrong, some believe the IRS should be abolished, but unless they're considerably braver men than me, they pay anyway. They do this not because the law is 'good' or 'bad' but because they'll go to prison if they don't. People who disagree with a 30mph speed limit, and may break it from time to time, are far less likely to do so with one of New York's finest in their rear-view mirror. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 5 2005, 10:57 AM Post #34 |
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MAMIL
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Speaking as someone who owns only a 1998 Toyota Sienna, I sincerely hope that the car is not an extension of my wots-is-name. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Nina | Dec 5 2005, 11:03 AM Post #35 |
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Senior Carp
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:lol: :lol: Well, I owned a 1967 VW Beetle for years. Then a Honda Civic wagon. Those two still remain my favorite cars. Nina (old and crotchety before her time) |
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| ivorythumper | Dec 5 2005, 11:07 AM Post #36 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Paying taxes per se is not a bad thing -- Render unto Caesar and all that. We have a moral obligation to promote the common good (not just our own personal goods), and the well ordering of society, defense, sanitation, roads, education. law enforcement, etc requires funding. Either we pay for it in taxes, or it is provided for us by the feudal lord in exchange for our fealty and our tithe, or by the State in a strict collectivism where we own no actual property, or some other mechanism -- but regardless the recipient of the goods in some way ultimately supports it. I can't think of a single government or economic system that ever did anything for the people out of the goodness of its heart. The poor are fed so that they don't riot and give rise to bad publicity events. The mechanism of taxation might be confiscatory or extortional, which would be bad and require reform, but that is a prudential question of how best to administrate the system. As much as I loathe paying taxes, it would be a far greater evil if taxes were not paid and the social order shut down. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Dec 5 2005, 11:11 AM Post #37 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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:lol: Have you ever seen the National Lampoon Bulgemobile? ![]()
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Nina | Dec 5 2005, 11:16 AM Post #38 |
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Senior Carp
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I'm not sure I'm reading Jolly's post correctly... are you implying that it is OK or even a moral imperative to ignore a "bad" law? (Ignoring racist, bigoted, murderous laws enacted by nutjobs like Hitler, let's keep it in a reasonable plane.) Who decides what is a bad law? And as my parents used to tell me, what would happen if everyone did that? ![]() I vote for changing bad laws, not ignoring them. |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 5 2005, 11:22 AM Post #39 |
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MAMIL
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Can you name the truck with four wheel drive, smells like a steak and seats thirty-five.. Canyonero! Canyonero! Well, it goes real slow with the hammer down, It's the country-fried truck endorsed by a clown! Canyonero! (Yah!) Canyonero! The Federal Highway comission has ruled the Canyonero unsafe for highway or city driving. Canyonero! 12 yards long, 2 lanes wide, 65 tons of American Pride! Canyonero! Canyonero! Top of the line in utility sports, Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts! Canyonero! Canyonero! (Yah!) She blinds everybody with her super high beams, She's a squirrel crushing, deer smacking, driving machine! Canyonero!-oh woah, Canyonero! (Yah!) Drive Canyonero! |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| JBryan | Dec 5 2005, 11:24 AM Post #40 |
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I am the grey one
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Sounds like something you can really fight back with. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| kenny | Dec 5 2005, 11:25 AM Post #41 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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If so Jolly does that mean I can go get married today? |
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| JBryan | Dec 5 2005, 11:28 AM Post #42 |
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I am the grey one
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You can go get married any time you like as long as it is to a woman. Anything else is not recognized by the state at this time. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Jolly | Dec 5 2005, 11:31 AM Post #43 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Nope. Look at the bright side...in some societies, a "bad" law would have you stoned to death. But then....we must obey the law, must we not? |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Jolly | Dec 5 2005, 11:35 AM Post #44 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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First, you must define a "bad" law. To do that, we must have some starting point...in this case, the common good. It is my point of debate in this sociologial thread that the common good is most often originally defined by the religious experience of those doing the defining. Furthermore, when those major boundaries are passed, we have delved into bad law, which should not be obeyed. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| QuirtEvans | Dec 5 2005, 11:36 AM Post #45 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Whether a law promotes the common good is in the eye of the beholder, IT. I feel fairly certain that Mark does not believe that the tax laws as currently written ACTUALLY promote the common good, regardless of their intention. Yet he complies, for the reasons John has given. And if intention is the lodestar, almost any law, even bad laws, INTEND to promote the common good, in the eyes of proponents. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| ivorythumper | Dec 5 2005, 11:43 AM Post #46 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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you'd have to make the argument that the support of the organs that protect civil order, provide a safe environment for daily living, facilitate commerce, education, sanitation etc is somehow inimical to the common good and ought not be supported. how it is done is one thing, doing it is another. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 5 2005, 11:44 AM Post #47 |
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MAMIL
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OK, take another hypothetical case. Artificial methods of contraception are banned, due to the religious or moral convictions of the majority of residents of beautiful Vermont. It's a bad law from my perspective, in that I don't agree with it on moral principles as I'm an atheist, and also don't feel that I have enough money to adequately support another child. Me and the Mrs, however, after a short period of abstinence, are finding that we are obliged to begin breaking this law on a hopefully regular basis, using cheap knock-off Canadian contraceptive pills. Am I right or wrong to do so? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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4:51 PM Jul 10