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| For IT...; Oldest Church | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 5 2005, 03:17 PM (275 Views) | |
| bachophile | Nov 5 2005, 03:17 PM Post #1 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Oldest Church Archaeologists say may have found oldest church By Amiram Barkat, Haaretz Correspondent, and AP A mosaic and the remains of a building uncovered recently in excavations on the Megiddo prison grounds may belong to the earliest church in the world, according to a preliminary examination by the Israel Antiquities Authority. One of the most dramatic finds suggests that, instead of an altar, a simple table stood in the center of the church, at which a sacred meal was held to commemorate the Last Supper. Photographs of three Greek inscriptions in the mosaic were sent to Hebrew University expert Professor Leah Di Segni, who told Haaretz on Sunday that the use of the term "table" in one of them instead of the word "altar" might lead to a breakthrough in the study of ancient Christianity. It is commonly believed that church rituals based on the Last Supper took place around an altar. The excavation was begun prior to the issuing of building permits for a new wing of the Megiddo prison, which houses security prisoners. Some 60 inmates from the Megiddo and Tzalmon prisons took part in the excavation. The site is close to Tel Megiddo, believed to be Armageddon of the New Testament book of Revelation. The northern inscription mentions a Roman army officer who donated the money to build the floor. The eastern inscription commemorates four women, and the western inscription mentions a woman by the name of Ekeptos, who "donated this table to the God Jesus Christ in commemoration." The mosaic also contains geometric patterns and a medallion with a fish design. "I was told these were Byzantine," Di Segni said, "but they seem much earlier than anything I have seen so far from the Byzantine period. It could be from the third or the beginning of the fourth century." A pottery vessel discovered at the site confirms Di Segni's dating, however she said the church's age can only be determined with certainty after excavators reach the level below the floor. "The problem is that in Israel we have no mosaic inscriptions from this period, and they will have to be compared with inscriptions from Antioch or Rome," she said. Christian rituals were prohibited in the Roman Empire prior to the year 313 CE, and Christians had to pray in secret in catacombs or private homes. The earliest churches, dating from around 330 CE, are the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem, the Nativity in Bethlehem, and Alonei Mamre near Hebron. However, they contain only scant remains of the original structures, which were built by Emperor Constantine I. The structure discovered at the Megiddo prison is a simple rectangular one lacking the later characteristics of churches, such as an apse facing east. "I don't know if this structure can even be called a church," Di Sengi said. Other discoveries at the prison include dwellings from the Roman times and a ritual bath, which was sealed and built on top of during the Byzantine period, bearing out historical information about a Jewish site in this area, Kfar Othnai, which became a Christian site in the Byzantine period. The excavation was directed by Yotan Tepper of the Israel Antiquities Authority. Tourism Minister Avraham Hirchson said the discovery could greatly increase tourism to Israel. "If we nurture this properly, then certainly there will be a large stream of tourists who could come to Israel. There is great potential and together with the evangelical center in the north could bring great strides in tourism," he told Channel Two. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| Dewey | Nov 5 2005, 03:23 PM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Oldest link? |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Dewey | Nov 5 2005, 03:26 PM Post #3 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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"One of the most dramatic finds suggests that, instead of an altar, a simple table stood in the center of the church, at which a sacred meal was held to commemorate the Last Supper. " Oh, stand back! Have you no idea what can of worms you're unleashing, man? :lol: (Actually, thanks for posting the article, bach) |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Larry | Nov 5 2005, 03:38 PM Post #4 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| bachophile | Nov 5 2005, 03:40 PM Post #5 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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why? whats the differnce between altar and table? yes in hebrew they are 2 different words, but are often interchangebale. for example, Malachi 1:7 altar=mizbeach table= shulchan for IT...offertis super altare meum panem pollutum et dicitis in quo polluimus te in eo quod dicitis mensa Domini despecta est |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| DivaDeb | Nov 5 2005, 03:41 PM Post #6 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I guess the Israeli tourism ministry should be singing a chorus of "What a Friend We Have in Jesus." |
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| bachophile | Nov 5 2005, 03:44 PM Post #7 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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oh they have been singing that for long time...![]() Baptisms in the Jordan river |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| DivaDeb | Nov 5 2005, 03:53 PM Post #8 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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yep, I know |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 5 2005, 04:48 PM Post #9 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Thanks for the link, Bach. Don't worry, Dwain, the notion of a primitive table form is well accepted in Catholic theology (such as the 1947 papal encyclical Mediator Dei). Virtually nothing is known about the actual early Christian liturgies apart from a few texts, partly due to the "disciplina arcana". I wonder what they mean by the oldest church -- the "House of Peter" in Capharnaum and the domus ecclesia in Dura Europos are both from the first half of the 3rd cent. Also, the earliest known purpose built church is apparently the basilica in Aqaba from perhaps 290. It will be interesting to see what other stratigraphic evidence suggests about the age as the excavations continue. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Dewey | Nov 5 2005, 05:12 PM Post #10 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I'm just teasin', Ivory. Bach, so you understand, Catholic (and Episcopal and Lutheran? I don't know their traditions) churches feature ecclesistical fittings called "altars," while churches coming out of the Reformed tradition and other branches of Protestantism feel the term "altar" to be an inappropriate description of what they/we feel is happening, theologically, in the sacrament of Communion. This is just one of those quirky, inconsequential, trivial details that Catholics and Protestants have discussed politely over tea, or slit each other's throats over, in the past...
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| bachophile | Nov 5 2005, 05:23 PM Post #11 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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oh ok. any problem with chairs vs seats? |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| Dewey | Nov 5 2005, 05:47 PM Post #12 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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No, we're mostly okay with that distinction - all except the Lutherans/ELCA and the Lutherans/Missouri Synod, who split over that issue. Further altar/table talk: it goes to the issue of whether in the Eucharist/Communion, Christ is in essence being "re-sacrificed" (and, as a sacrifice, requires an "altar"), or if the sacrament means something somewhat different -and here I'm being vague, because different Protestants hold different opinons regarding what exactly is happening in observing the sacrament - but they commonly hold that Christ's sacrifice was completed once and for all, and that it ended all need for any future sacrifice (or re-sacrifice), and therefore, an "altar." Thumps, if I misspoke here regarding RCC thought, it's truly accidental. I'm only trying to give a general and un-theologically charged explanation regarding the altar/table discussion, not start a range war.
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 5 2005, 06:58 PM Post #13 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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No problem, Dwain. The apostolic liturgy is neither a re-sacrifice or a new or future sacrifice. It is a sacramental representation of the one eternal sacrifice and a sacramental participation in the wedding feast of the Lamb-- Jesus continuously offers himself to the Father for the salvation of the world, and the angels and saints are ever in worship of the Trinity. It is essentially a "sacred banquet" -- a sacra convivium. All meals are sacrifices in that something is offered and dies that others might live. Which is why we also say grace before meals. Kind of interesting that the Protestants think "something" is going on, but it can be anything except what the apostolic churches (catholic, orthodox, maronite, melchite, coptic, mar thoma, syro malabar, etc) have taught for two thousand years. As far as pews vs chairs -- bahh! Sitting is a protestant innovation from the 16th century once the liturgy turned into long teachings and sermons. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| bachophile | Nov 5 2005, 07:05 PM Post #14 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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better link |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| Dewey | Nov 5 2005, 09:13 PM Post #15 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Well you know, we figured that if we were going to be heretics, at least we could be comfortable... |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 5 2005, 09:36 PM Post #16 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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:lol: |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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