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France is burning
Topic Started: Nov 5 2005, 05:09 AM (1,282 Views)
Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I'm still waiting for Rick to give us some example of the riots he says we had in America from shunting immigrants into ghettos.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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kathyk
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But, the Serbians had a long standing, simmering hatred of the Muslims since the Ottomans took control way back when. Yugoslavia, not unlike Iraq, was a country formed of a patchwork of several distinct ethnic/cultural heritages, and during the 20th century it was only kept together with the looming shadow of the USSR and the ensuring leadership of Tito. Once those artificial coagulators dissolved, all hell broke loose, and so did generations of pent up hatred.
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kathyk
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Well, Detroit, immediately comes to mind. I don't think he meant "shunting" in the literal sense, but rather in the sense of reckless corporate/social planning or lack thereof that caused masses of poor blacks to throng to the industrialized north for jobs but that didn't ensure longstanding jobs or security for them, such that ghettos and the urban wasteland were born.

I lived in Detroit after the aftermath (late 70s) and witnessed first-hand the profound desolation and isolation of the impoverished, inner city, society that remained after the great white flight. Societies that allow that to happen are inevitably going to be bitten.
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AlbertaCrude
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kathyk
Nov 6 2005, 04:50 PM
Yugoslavia, ....was only kept together with the looming shadow of the USSR and the ensuring leadership of Tito. Once those artificial coagulators dissolved, all hell broke loose, and so did generations of pent up hatred.

I doubt whether Stalin and Tito would have considered themselves to be coagulators. Iron fisted leaders yes, but certainly not coagulators.
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kathyk
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There was something benevolent about Tito, though. When I was in Yugo (late 70s) people spoke fondly of him.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
I live in Detroit after the aftermath (late 70s) and witnessed first-hand the profound desolation of massived inner city, desolate, isolated social class. Societies that allow that to happen are inevitably going to be bitten.


So you are of the opinion that blacks in the 70s have something to do with immigrants being shunted into ghettos?...

Somehow, I'm not the least bit surprised......
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
I live in Detroit after the aftermath (late 70s)

Quote:
 
When I was in Yugo (late 70s)


...... I assume you're talking then about Yugo, Michigan?.....


Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
damn i wish this place had a working search engine.

i now remember clearly a thread in the post katrina time, when a sharp criticsm of america's handling of the new orleans crisis was made by the french.

my response at the time was this is the same country who had thousands die in a heat wave.

in the meantime, i see the french are at a loss to correctly handle their own crises. true its not comparable, but i think that its wise not to jump to criticise how anyone handles a crisis, without all the facts. but the great Republique Francaise with its Liberte, Egalite, est Fraternite is having abit of a tough time, and i dont see americans pouncing on them for how they handle it. just maybe a smirk of..just maybe.. .u had it coming.

if anyone knows where the thread is, please link to it.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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John D'Oh
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It's always a lot easier to solve other people's problems than our own :)
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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kathyk
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Yugo, Michigan doesn't show up on my map. There's a Paris, a Rome, a Cairo . . .
No - I meant Yugoslavia, the erstwhile Balkan country.
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iainhp
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Quote:
 
 
  It's always a lot easier to solve other people's problems than our own
 


Ain't that the truth!
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Rick Zimmer
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bachophile
Nov 6 2005, 06:22 PM
....and i dont see americans pouncing on them for how they handle it.

No need to jump on the French. These are not easy issues to deal with.

First they need to stop the violence. To some extent, it is like fighting a brush fire. Do the best you can to contain it and then let it run its course. It will stop.

Then comes the hard part. It requires a full and serious self-analysis of French societal policies and modifying them accordingly.

I was surpised when I heard today that it is against the law in France for the government to keep records and/or statistics based on ethnicity or race. Apparently, this is based on a belief that it will help people assimilate -- they are all just French, nothing else.

This means the government really has no idea what the unemeployment rate is among the African and Islamic immigrants, what the schooling is like, what problems they may face that others in France do not.

Thus, the government is not capable of focusing attention on groups having specific problems. This, apparently has exacerbated the feeling of the immigrants and their families that they have been relegated to second class citizenship and their problems are not being addressed -- specifically educational and employment ones.

The French are a deservedly proud people; but in many ways they have rested on their laurels and assumed that if people were made French citizens, they would automatically see the greatness of the French culture and share in the pride of that greatness.

Unfortunately, when there are significant groups who do not share in the bounty of the society, they do not subscribe to the greatness of it and eventually their anger and frustration erupt. We have seen it here in the US and will likely see it again as our society lurches backwards in its social policies.

This is going to be a very difficult time of self examination for the French. I hope they do it and do it well because I suspect this same problem is brewing in many of the cultural enclaves that are European countries. If the French do it well, the other countries of the European Union can follow their example.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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garrett
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Rick Zimmer
Nov 6 2005, 10:39 PM
Unfortunately, when there are significant groups who do not share in the bounty of the society, they do not subscribe to the greatness of it and eventually their anger and frustration erupt. We have seen it here in the US and will likely see it again as our society lurches backwards in its social policies.

Could you provide an example, please?
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Rick Zimmer
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garrett
Nov 6 2005, 11:49 PM
Rick Zimmer
Nov 6 2005, 10:39 PM
Unfortunately, when there are significant groups who do not share in the bounty of the society, they do not subscribe to the greatness of it and eventually their anger and frustration erupt.  We have seen it here in the US and will likely see it again as our society lurches backwards in its social policies.

Could you provide an example, please?

Might I suggest a review of the race riots of the 1960's.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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garrett
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Rick Zimmer
Nov 6 2005, 10:54 PM
garrett
Nov 6 2005, 11:49 PM
Rick Zimmer
Nov 6 2005, 10:39 PM
Unfortunately, when there are significant groups who do not share in the bounty of the society, they do not subscribe to the greatness of it and eventually their anger and frustration erupt.  We have seen it here in the US and will likely see it again as our society lurches backwards in its social policies.

Could you provide an example, please?

Might I suggest a review of the race riots of the 1960's.

I'll put that on my itinerary for tomorrows reading. Thanks for the suggestion.

Any particular policies that I should keep a look out for?
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Rick Zimmer
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garrett
Nov 6 2005, 11:57 PM
Rick Zimmer
Nov 6 2005, 10:54 PM
garrett
Nov 6 2005, 11:49 PM
Rick Zimmer
Nov 6 2005, 10:39 PM
Unfortunately, when there are significant groups who do not share in the bounty of the society, they do not subscribe to the greatness of it and eventually their anger and frustration erupt.  We have seen it here in the US and will likely see it again as our society lurches backwards in its social policies.

Could you provide an example, please?

Might I suggest a review of the race riots of the 1960's.

I'll put that on my itinerary for tomorrows reading. Thanks for the suggestion.

Any particular policies that I should keep a look out for?

LBJ established a very high level bi-partisan, government and non-government commission to review the causes of the riots. If my memory serves me correctly, I think it was called the Warren Commission. That would be the place to start.

It found that the true cause was the economic deprivation in the inner cities and the sense of powerlessness and disenfranchisement, all leading to a sense of hopelessness and non-assimilation in the mainstream of society.

As I read what is coming out of France, it sounds remarkably similar.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
the warren commision examined kennedys assasination.

u mean the kerner commision.

The Kerner Commission was the popular name given to the National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders, chaired by Illinois governor Otto Kerner. The 11-member commission was created in July, 1967 by President Lyndon B. Johnson to investigate the causes of the 1967 race riots in the United States. The commission's report, usually called the "Kerner Report," was released on February 29, 1968. Its finding was that the riots resulted from black frustration at lack of economic opportunity. Its best-known quote is: "Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white—-separate and unequal."

"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
edit
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Klotz
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bachophile
Nov 7 2005, 02:54 PM
edit

So... you are not surprised anymore ? The French should not be surprised either :

Général de Gaulle - ("C'était de Gaulle" d'Alain Peyrefitte) - Il est bon qu'il y ait des Français noirs, bruns ou jaunes, à la seule condition que ces populations restent en très faible minorité,car le peuple français est de race blanche, de culture gréco-latine et de religion chrétienne." (CDG - French president)

J.Chirac - (La Courneuve - 5 mars 1988) -"Nous ne devons plus recevoir d'immigrés, car nous n'avons plus les moyens de les recevoir dignement."(Chirac - French president)

G.Marchais - (9 janvier 1981) -"Il est inadmissible de laisser entrer en France des travailleurs immigrés, alors que nous comptons 2 millions de chômeurs." ( Georges Marchais was the head of the French Communist Party)

Mitterrand - (1994) -"Le seuil de tolérance a été atteint dès 1970, il y a une trop forte concentration d'immigrés, des fanatiques et des exaltés de l'islam." (Mitterand - French president)

M.Rocard - (Le Point - 19 mars 1990) "La France ne peut héberger toute la misère du monde." (Michel Rocard - French prime minister)


Martin Klotz
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I believe that a very appropriate phrase both in Paris and in New Orleans is Sh** Happens. A wise man once said 'The poor are always with us' he could have followed up with 'and different groups of rich people will continue to blame each other for this fact'.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
je ne parle pas francais
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Klotz
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bachophile
Nov 7 2005, 03:56 PM
je ne parle pas francais

Amanda could translate the quotes into beautiful Americanese...but she is busy on WTF in the "WE ALL HATE BUSH SO VERY MUCH" thread :lol:


No lost Canadian - un canadien errant - here to translate ?
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AlbertaCrude
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Sorry Klotz but my childhood knowledge of French was pretty much assimilated by the Russian language.

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Klotz
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AlbertaCrude
Nov 7 2005, 04:33 PM
Sorry Klotz but my childhood knowledge of French was pretty much assimilated by the Russian language.

OTOH, one of the best French writters was ...Russian : Henri Troyat ! Highly recommended. And one of the greatest Russian composers was of french descent .
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
As someone born in England, it is actually illegal for me to attempt to speak French. Canna Speaks da lingo, mate.

However, I suspect they're all rather along the lines of 'We don't want any immigrants over here, thanks very much all the same'.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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