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France is burning
Topic Started: Nov 5 2005, 05:09 AM (1,281 Views)
Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
and the topic seems to be completely ignored here, unless I'm missing something.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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***musical princess***
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HOLY CARP!!!
???????

France is burning????

x
x Caroline x
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***musical princess***
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HOLY CARP!!!
I this what you are talking about?


France Is Burning
Items About Areas That Could Break Out Into War

November 1, 2005: France is burning. For most of the last week, there have been nasty riots in the Parisian suburb of St Denis, complete with fires and many casualties. This area is home to about 500,000 Moslems. Many largely Moslem suburbs of Paris, and other large cities, have become no-go zones for the police, and anyone who is not of Middle Eastern origin. Over the last three decades, generous social benefits and immigration policies have left France with a Moslem population of some five million (about eight percent of the population.) High rise housing for them was built on the outskirts of major cities. Most of these Moslems did not try to assimilate, and by maintaining their old country culture and language, they made it more difficult for their kids to get jobs. Among the old school customs practiced is attacking, and even murdering, girls who do not conform to a “Moslem” style of behavior. While jobs may be lacking, crime and social welfare payments are not. So people can live without jobs, and make a little extra with some crime on the side. But when you have a lot of people participating in, or just condoning, criminal behavior, you have a very dangerous place for outsiders. Officially, the government condemns this sort of “profiling,” but a look at crime statistics shows that high rates of robbery, murder and rape tend to coincide with Moslem areas. There are unofficial maps on the Internet, where French citizens can check about where not to get lost the next time they go for a drive.

Meanwhile, the high crime rates in the Moslem neighborhoods has been spilling over into non-Moslem areas, and there has been a major outbreak of anti-Semitic attacks on Jews, and Jewish targets (synagogues, cemeteries, Etc.). It’s not only become embarrassing for the government, but it’s become a political issue. So the Interior Ministry has established special police units to try and reduce the crime rate in the Moslem areas. That has led to the recent rioting, arson, injuries, and advice by French traditionalists to just ignore the French Moslems. Leave them alone. Ignore them. Just like France has been doing for decades. Let the counter-terrorism police take care of any hotheads. But for the moment, the Interior Ministry is run by law-and-order types, and they are determined to at least own the streets in Moslem areas. So France burns.


x
x Caroline x
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Violence flares again in France, deepening sense of crisis

PARIS (AFP) - Arson attacks flared overnight around Paris and police made more than 30 arrests as the worst violence the capital has seen in decades dragged on into its ninth straight night.

Two textile warehouses and a car showroom were set on fire to the northeast of the city, while some 180 vehicles were torched in the Paris region.

A fire-bomb was also thrown against the wall of a synagogue in the northern suburb of Pierrefitte-sur-Seine, police said.

At least 30 people were arrested, including some minors found to be carrying material to make incendiary bombs.

Similar scenes were also reported in the northern city of Lille, the western city of Rennes and in Toulouse, in the southwest.

The gangs of youths from low-income, high-immigration neighbourhoods blamed for the violence largely ditched their earlier tactics of pelting police with stones, bottles and Molotov cocktails, preferring instead to run away after setting the fires.

The new round rampages came just hours after Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin held a crisis meeting with Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy on the riots, which are the worst since a 1968 student revolt.

Villepin also met a group of suburban youths for two and a half hours in his office to discuss the situation and hear their grievances.

Much of the fury in the streets, though, has been aimed at Sarkozy and his hardline policies aimed at cleaning up the crime-ridden suburbs with, as he put it, "a power-hose."

Shots have been fired at riot police, without causing injury, and at least three people -- including a handicapped woman -- have been badly burnt by Molotov cocktails.

The enduring troubles have dealt Sarkozy's ambition of running in 2007 presidential elections a heavy blow. Many of the youths in the disaffected suburbs have called for his resignation over his description of them as "rabble" -- a demand echoed Friday by the opposition Communist and Greens parties.

The riots were sparked October 27, when two teenagers were electrocuted in a tough, low-income suburb north of Paris as they hid in an electrical sub-station to flee a police identity check.

Since then, they have spread every night. On Thursday, copycat violence occurred in Marseille, Dijon and in Normandy.

Overwhelmed police have found themselves powerless to stop the conflagration, which has seen a total of over 1,000 vehicles torched and more than 200 people arrested.

Those responsible are groups of young Muslim men, the sons of families from France's former Arab and African colonial territories, who have said in interviews that they are protesting economic misery, racial discrimination and provocative policing.

The leader of one police union, Bruno Beschizza, has described the riots as "urban terrorism", but Paris Mayor Bertrand Delanoe of the opposition Socialist Party warned against hastily lumping together "one religion, Islam, and a few extremists" in apportioning blame.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Paris Rioters Burn Ambulance and Stone Medics
Saturday, November 05, 2005

AUBERVILLIERS, France — Widespread riots across impoverished areas of France took a malevolent turn in a ninth night of violence, as youths torched an ambulance and stoned medical workers coming to the aid of a sick person. Authorities arrested more than 200 people, an unprecedented sweep since the beginning of the unrest.

Bands of youths also burned a nursery school, warehouses and more than 750 cars overnight as the violence that spread from the restive Paris suburbs to towns around France. The U.S. warned Americans against taking trains to the airport through the affected areas.

Fires and other incidents were reported in the northern city of Lille, in Toulouse, in the southwest, Rouen, in the west and elsewhere on the second night of unrest in areas beyond metropolitan Paris. An incendiary device was tossed at the wall of a synagogue in Pierrefitte, northwest of Paris, where electricity went out after a burning car damaged an electrical pole.

"This is dreadful, unfortunate. Who did this? Against whom?" Naima Mouis, a hospital worker in Suresnes, asked while looking at the hulk of her burned-out car.

An Interior Ministry operations center tracking the destruction reported more than 750 vehicles burned around France. The figure marked a sharp rise from the more than 500 vehicles set ablaze 24 hours earlier. Arrests were up overnight, to 203, the center said.

A nursery school was badly burned in Acheres, west of Paris, and will require months of repairs, the mayor's office said. In Torcy, east of the capital, looters set fire to a youth center and a police station, which were gutted, city hall said.

Marches to call for calm were planned Saturday in several suburbs.

The violence — sparked after the Oct. 27 accidental electrocution of two teenagers who believed police were chasing them in Seine-Saint-Denis — has laid bare discontent simmering in France's poor suburbs ringing big cities. Those areas are home to large populations of African Muslim immigrants and their children living in low-income housing projects marked by high unemployment, crime and despair.

The persistence of the violence prompted the American and Russian governments to advise citizens visiting Paris to avoid the suburbs, where authorities were struggling to gain control of the worst rioting in at least a decade.

An attack this week on a woman bus passenger highlighted the savage nature of some of the violence. The woman, in her 50s and on crutches, was doused with an inflammable liquid and set afire after passengers were forced to leave the bus, blocked by burning objects on the road, judicial officials said.

Late Friday in Meaux, east of Paris, youths prevented firefighters from evacuating a sick person from an apartment in a housing project, pelting them with stones and torching the awaiting ambulance, an Interior Ministry officer said. The officer, not authorized to speak publicly, asked not to be named.

"I'm not able to sleep at night because you never know when a fire might break out," said Mammed Chukri, 36, a Kurdish immigrant from northern Iraq living near a burned carpet warehouse. "I have three children and I live in a five-story building. If a fire hit, what would I do?"

A national police spokesman, Patrick Hamon, said there appeared to be no coordination between gangs in the various riot-hit suburbs. He said, however, that neighborhood youths were communicating between themselves using mobile phone text messaging or e-mails to arrange meeting points and alert each other to police.

"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
So.... we have a real world example of the results of appeasement and the "just ignore them" mentality.......

Isn't the whole thing so totally ironic......

Let's hear it, pacifists! What should we do again?.........
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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apple
one of the angels
AUBERVILLIERS, France - Widespread riots across impoverished areas of France took a malevolent turn in a ninth night of violence, with youths torching an ambulance and stoning medical workers coming to the aid of a sick person. Authorities arrested more than 250 people, an unprecedented sweep since the beginning of the unrest.


Bands of youths also burned a nursery school, warehouses and nearly 900 cars overnight as the violence spread from the restive Paris suburbs to towns around France. The U.S. warned Americans against taking trains to the airport through the affected areas.

At the nursery school in Acheres, west of Paris, part of the roof was caved in, childrens' photos stuck to blackened walls, and melted plastic toys littered the floor.

The town had been previously untouched by the violence. Some residents demanded that the army be deployed, or that citizens rise up and form militias. At the school gate, the mayor tried to calm tempers.

"We are not going to start militias," Mayor Alain Outreman said. "You would have to be everywhere."

Fires and other incidents were reported in Lille, Toulouse, Rouen and elsewhere on the second night of unrest in areas beyond metropolitan Paris. An incendiary device was tossed at the wall of a synagogue in Pierrefitte, northwest of Paris, where electricity went out after a burning car damaged an electrical pole.

"This is dreadful, unfortunate. Who did this? Against whom?" Naima Mouis, a hospital worker in Suresnes, asked while looking at the hulk of her burned-out car.

On Saturday morning, more than 1,000 people took part in a silent march in one of the worst-hit suburbs, Aulnay-sous-Bois, filing past burned-out cars to demand calm. One banner read: "No to violence." Car torchings have become a daily fact in France's tough suburbs, with about 100 each night.

The Interior Ministry said nearly 900 vehicles were burned throughout France from Friday night to Saturday morning, most in the Paris area.

Arrests were also up sharply, with more than 250 people detained overnight, nearly all in the Paris area, said national police spokesman Patrick Hamon. Police deployed in smaller teams and used a helicopter to track bands of youths going from attack to attack, he said.

Police had made just 78 arrests in the Paris region the previous night.

The violence — sparked after the Oct. 27 accidental electrocution of two teenagers who believed police were chasing them in Seine-Saint-Denis — has laid bare discontent simmering in France's poor suburbs ringing big cities. Those areas are home to large populations of African Muslim immigrants and their children living in low-income housing projects marked by high unemployment, crime and despair.

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin oversaw a Cabinet meeting Saturday to evaluate the situation.

The persistence of the violence prompted the American and Russian governments to advise citizens visiting Paris to avoid the suburbs, where authorities were struggling to gain control of the worst rioting in at least a decade.

An attack this week on a female bus passenger highlighted the savage nature of some of the violence. The woman, in her 50s and on crutches, was doused with an inflammable liquid and set afire after passengers were forced to leave the bus, blocked by burning objects on the road, judicial officials said.

Late Friday in Meaux, east of Paris, youths prevented firefighters from evacuating a sick person from an apartment in a housing project, pelting them with stones and torching the awaiting ambulance, an Interior Ministry officer said. The officer, not authorized to speak publicly, asked not to be named.

"I'm not able to sleep at night because you never know when a fire might break out," said Mammed Chukri, 36, a Kurdish immigrant from northern Iraq living near a burned carpet warehouse. "I have three children and I live in a five-story building. If a fire hit, what would I do?"

A national police spokesman, Patrick Hamon, said there appeared to be no coordination between gangs in the various riot-hit suburbs. He said, however, that neighborhood youths were communicating between themselves using cell phone text messaging or e-mails to arrange meeting points and alert each other to police.

___

Associated Press writers John Leicester, Elaine Ganley and Angela Doland in Paris contributed to this report.

it behooves me to behold
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Gosh! Those articles really went overboard in trying to keep the fact that the vast, vast majority of these arsonists are muslim quiet.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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apple
one of the angels
I imagine Europe will have a tough time in the coming years. It is rarely easy to have a culture living with another with any degree of segregation in the same country.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
It's doubly dangerous when not only do you have a population that doesn't want to integrate into the culture (but rather, only wants its benefits), but also a government that either overemphasizes the societal value of cultural differences, or just doesn't want them to help them integrate. I like diversity. I'm a big fan of E Pluribus Unum, as long as we don't igonore the "Unum" side of the equation.

"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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mrenaud
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apple
Nov 5 2005, 07:28 PM
It is rarely easy to have a culture living with another with any degree of segregation in the same country.

But it can be done. What we have in Switzerland are essentially four different, distinct cultures (German-speaking, French-speaking, Italian-speaking and Rumantsch-speaking, but language is not the only difference). Granted, they're all Christian, but that doesn't mean a lot (I mean, look at Northern Ireland where Christians hate other Christians). It works well, has done so for hundreds of years and will most likely continue to do so. It requires the cooperation of everyone involved though. Attempts of integration shouldn't just be considered futile beforehand.

On the topic at hand, it should be noted that the riots in France are not primarily a religious issue. It is true that many of them are muslims, but the reasons are mainly poverty and unemployment. Although there's a sort of welfare, not that much has been done to improve the situation in the suburbs. Religion isn't actually that much an issue here.
Why is it that the world never remembered the name of Johann Gambolputty de von Ausfern Schplenden Schlitter Crasscrenbon Fried Digger Dingle Dangle Dongle Dungle Burstein von Knacker Thrasher Apple Banger Horowitz Ticolensic Grander Knotty Spelltinkle Grandlich Grumblemeyer Spelterwasser Kurstlich Himbleeisen Bahnwagen Gutenabend Bitte ein Nürnburger Bratwurstle Gerspurten Mitz Weimache Luber Hundsfut Gumberaber Shönedanker Kalbsfleisch Mittler Aucher von Hautkopft of Ulm?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Luke's Dad
Nov 5 2005, 09:21 AM
Gosh! Those articles really went overboard in trying to keep the fact that the vast, vast majority of these arsonists are muslim quiet.

The CNN news report I just watched never once mentioned Moslems or middle easterners -- only "youth" and "community groups".

They did, however, conspicuously show street scenes of dark skinned people in traditional middle eastern garb.

What are we to conclude???
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Perhaps we should conclude nothing save that an angry immigrant youth mob is rioting the streets. We may also want to look at some socio-economic factors that frame their anger and daily predicament:

From today's Bloomberg.com:

" Joblessness in France is 22.2 percent for men under 25 years old, compared with 7.8 percent for men aged 25 to 49, according to the Labor Ministry. France doesn't include ethnicity in its census nor does it publish poverty or unemployment statistics based on ethnicity or religion.

Among 20- to 24-year-olds living in French suburbs whose residents are predominantly Muslim, the jobless rate during the 1999 census was 37.2 percent for men, compared with the national average of 22.5 percent, and 39.5 percent for women, compared with 28.4 percent. The figures come from a 2003 report for the prime minister by the High Council for Integration."


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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Follow that up with asking why those statistics exist: a lack of ambition/expectation of being handed a good job by the government within the immigrant population versus the native population? Racism/prejudice against the immigrants on the part of the public? A lack of desire, due to political calculation, to offer the same level of assistance to the immigrants that they offer to the native public, who are already routinely striking and complaining for more/better benfits? Any or all of those, with a dollop of radical Islam to fuel the fire? I don't know, I suspect the latter.

It's a real problem, on a large scale. I just found it interesting that it wasn't on the Coffee Room radar screen at all - not even to stake out the predictable positions, from all of us usual suspects, that other - even less newsworthy - issues seem to cause.

"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
I suspect there's a bias that France is reaping what it sowed. Therefore apathy combined a with a dash of smug "i told you so" relegated it to the dungeon of people's consciousness.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
AlbertaCrude
Nov 5 2005, 11:29 AM
I suspect there's a bias that France is reaping what it sowed. Therefore apathy combined a with a dash of smug "i told you so" relegated it to the dungeon of people's consciousness.

Oh, I'll go further than that, I openly admit to some degree of smugness over the matter, what with France having no problems pointing out the problems of the U.S. and feeling that they have all the answers - or at least better ones than ours. They're a much older and experienced culture than ours, you know. If this attitude is relegated to my own personal dungeon, it's a dungeon with a picture window, and I'll readily draw open its curtains.

Lots of people have a bias like that, if they're honest with themselves. But after the initial gut reaction, a person can put that bias aside, and honestly look at the issue and say, "Okay, of course Chirac and de Villepin are world class asses. But beyond that, what's really going on here, and is there anything that we can learn from it - whether fromt he vantage point of the government, or of the immigrants?"

Plus, I think it's valuable to examine not only the tragedy itself, but why it really isn't getting much attention in the press. I mean, if 500 cars had been firebombed in in a nine-day long riot in the U.S., the press would be on it with the same intensity of Hurricane Katrina. The obligatory calls for Bush's impeachment, and the obligatory defenses.

But it happening in France? The news coverage is about as intense as a popcorn fart. Why?



"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Perhaps in the USA, but in Canada it is pretty much at the top of the news. In fact there was even a 20 minute special CBC TV documentary report (originally produced last April entitled One Too Many) that was rerun Thursday that focussed on the growing anti Semitism in France and how it is linked to militant Islam in the very suburbs that are under mob rule. Unfortunatley that video report is not yet online on the CBC website otherwise I would have posted a link. In any case it does not portray the French government or the reactionary Islamo-fascists in a positive or even remotely sympathetic light. In fact it charges the French government with aiding and abetting the growth of anti Semitism in the country.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Dwain or Apple (or anywhere else for that matter), could you tell me where you got your articles? Is there at least good coverage done by Reuters?

I'm trying to figure out where all the incidents are happening, since my Aunt and cousin live right outside of Paris. Tried calling them, but either I got the wrong number or their connection is out. I'm getting a few things here and there, but nothing specific about where this is all happening.

Freakin' US media.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
this link contains a small map of showing the affected districts:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...riot051105.html
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apple
one of the angels
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/france;_ylt...m4yBHNlYwNmYw--

scroll down for many more stories ^

http://news.yahoo.com/

i just google thru yahoo..
it behooves me to behold
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Klotz
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Dwain Lee
Nov 5 2005, 03:09 PM
and the topic seems to be completely ignored here, unless I'm missing something.

France ? Was ist das France ?
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
Reminds me an awful lot of the race riots in Detroit in the 60s.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Klotz
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Dwain Lee
Nov 5 2005, 09:24 PM
I just found it interesting that it wasn't on the Coffee Room radar screen at all - not even to stake out the predictable positions, from all of us usual suspects, that other - even less newsworthy - issues seem to cause.

Perhaps because, IMHO, this forum was hijacked by a group of posters interested in pointless "highest posts count" contests or "poop on the wall" discussions. I mean, the forum lost some of its appeal when you have to wade through lots of silly and dumb threads.
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***musical princess***
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HOLY CARP!!!
Everytime i open this thread i sing in my head:-

'France is burning,
France is burning,
Fetch the engines,
Fetch the engines,
Fire, Fire
Fire, Fire
Pour on water,
Pour on water,
France is burning,
France is Burning'

:P

x
x Caroline x
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Nov 5 2005, 12:15 PM
Perhaps we should conclude nothing save that an angry immigrant  youth mob is rioting  the streets. We may also want to look at some socio-economic factors that frame their anger and daily predicament:

From today's Bloomberg.com:

" Joblessness in France is 22.2 percent for men under 25 years old, compared with 7.8 percent for men aged 25 to 49, according to the Labor Ministry. France doesn't include ethnicity in its census nor does it publish poverty or unemployment statistics based on ethnicity or religion.

Among 20- to 24-year-olds living in French suburbs whose residents are predominantly Muslim, the jobless rate during the 1999 census was 37.2 percent for men, compared with the national average of 22.5 percent, and 39.5 percent for women, compared with 28.4 percent. The figures come from a 2003 report for the prime minister by the High Council for Integration."

Given these sorts of statistics, the French immigration policy seems tres stupide.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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