| Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Will They Ever Learn? | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 3 2005, 09:15 PM (978 Views) | |
| Rick Zimmer | Nov 4 2005, 08:29 AM Post #26 |
|
Fulla-Carp
|
I am sorry for laughing out loud, jbryan. But after reading weeks of your posts about how the outing of Valerie Plame was no big thing and the Fitzgerald investigation was a waste of time, I could't help but laugh when I read this! I had no idea you had such a sense of humor! |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
![]() |
|
| Rick Zimmer | Nov 4 2005, 08:35 AM Post #27 |
|
Fulla-Carp
|
I recall a time not too long ago -- maybe 4-5 years ago or so -- when Americans would have been appalled at the very idea of torture. Indeed, I have seen post after post on here attacking dictators for having secret jails, for torturing prisoners, for forcing confessions. And now what are Americans doing? Dicing and slicing words so that we don't have to say what we are doing is torture, arguing over the fine print trying to justify such evil. What the hell is going on? When did America decide to throw out its values of human dignity and human freedom and justice for all? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
![]() |
|
| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 4 2005, 08:39 AM Post #28 |
|
Senior Carp
|
:lol: :lol: Really JB, this is no laughing matter! :lol: |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Nov 4 2005, 08:41 AM Post #29 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
Glad you are enjoying yourself , Rick, but outing Valeria Plame was no big deal as I said repeatedly in my posts here and in the "Invesigations Coming Up?" thread. I did not, however, say that it was okay to reveal it or any classified information. While you are so busy going over me with your hypocrisy meter you may want to direct it at yourself and ask why you thought it was so important to investigate the leak of a piece of information that was inconsequential and could be had by following Valerie Plame to work yet this is no big deal to you. |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 4 2005, 08:43 AM Post #30 |
|
Senior Carp
|
When it started burning 20 trillion barrels of oil each day for every citizen. Haven't you read Darwin Rick? |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Nov 4 2005, 08:43 AM Post #31 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
Then why are you laughing? |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Nov 4 2005, 08:44 AM Post #32 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
Again, what torture? |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 4 2005, 08:59 AM Post #33 |
|
Senior Carp
|
I'm not, i just had to dislodge a piece of cucumber in my teeth. :mellow:
|
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
![]() |
|
| Rick Zimmer | Nov 4 2005, 12:14 PM Post #34 |
|
Fulla-Carp
|
Jeez, I don't know, jbryan. Maybe it is because Valerie Plame was acting within the boundaries of the American system of government and our democratic and free value system and she was outed by politicians solely to take political revenge against her husband, who was also acting within the American tradition of calling our leaders on the carpet when they have lied. The Gulag Americana is the antithesis of anything and everything America has ever stood for. Evil must be made public so it will stop. Let there be light! |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
![]() |
|
| Jolly | Nov 4 2005, 12:26 PM Post #35 |
![]()
Geaux Tigers!
|
You really need to read up on some of the exploits of the OSS...if this is a war against terrorism (and I believe it is), our guys nowadays are downright pansies... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
![]() |
|
| apple | Nov 4 2005, 12:30 PM Post #36 |
|
one of the angels
|
so much of what is being claimed to be torture is pretty benign.. they do worse in grade schools. |
| it behooves me to behold | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Nov 4 2005, 12:32 PM Post #37 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
Well, then, perhaps we disagree on whether chaining someone to the floor, naked, so that he freezes to death, is an immoral or unethical practice. In any event, it's a stupid intelligence-gathering practice. He can't exactly talk any more, now can he? And you keep ignoring the point about how the Bush Administration asked the Post not to name the Eastern European countries, out of concern for the safety of the agents ... and the Post complied. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Nov 4 2005, 12:35 PM Post #38 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
I am not ignoring it I just don't believe that is enough. As far as the chained man is concerned report the incident deal with the consequences but don't reveal a whole intelligence gathering operation over what, unless there is evidence to the contrary, is an anomaly. Systematic patterns of abuse would be a different matter entirely. |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Nov 4 2005, 12:37 PM Post #39 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
There is so much obvious distortion and hyperbole here I really feel no need to rebut it. |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Nov 4 2005, 12:41 PM Post #40 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
Well, it's clear that the Bush Administration made the request in order to protect the identity of covert agents, and the Post complied. I've not read anywhere that the Bush Administration alleged that publishing the article, without the names of the Eastern European agents, would compromise the safety of U.S. agents anywhere in the world. Surely, if they thought that, they would have made a broader request to the Post, since they did make a request about the article, with the safety of agents as the rationale. Is there any evidence that the Bush Administration made such a broader request? |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Nov 4 2005, 12:51 PM Post #41 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
You know the Post cannot be prevented from publishing anything they want. We have no idea what the administration would have wanted them to print but my supposition is nothing. We only really know what limits the Post agreed to. But that is , finally, not the point which is that someone with or formally with CIA leaked it and there should be a lot more concern over that than I am seeing. With no leak the administration would not be in the position of requesting anything. |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| The 89th Key | Nov 4 2005, 04:01 PM Post #42 |
|
:lol: :lol: Yup!
|
![]() |
|
| The 89th Key | Nov 4 2005, 04:05 PM Post #43 |
|
Didn't someone mention being chained to the floor and freezing to death overnight? Pretty remarkable considering it's in Cuba!!! :lol: |
![]() |
|
| AlbertaCrude | Nov 4 2005, 04:35 PM Post #44 |
|
Bull-Carp
|
No 89, that is G-tmo Bay- a US military Club Med. I think theremark was referring to the alleged American operated Gulag in Siberia and Central Asia- the 1 star resorts. |
![]() |
|
| Jeffrey | Nov 4 2005, 04:44 PM Post #45 |
|
Senior Carp
|
Would those who oppose torture in all circumstances no matter what please explain, with details, how, if we capture an Al Quaida operative with knowledge of terrorist strikes in the planning state, we are supposed to get this individual to talk and give us this information? Again, please be specific, and solution-oriented in your recommendations. |
![]() |
|
| AlbertaCrude | Nov 4 2005, 04:59 PM Post #46 |
|
Bull-Carp
|
An offer of 71 virgins? |
![]() |
|
| Kincaid | Nov 4 2005, 05:21 PM Post #47 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
I thought they got 72? We're gonna have to offer them a better deal. Course, I'd take one in the hand over 72 in the..er, bush. |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
![]() |
|
| AlbertaCrude | Nov 4 2005, 05:24 PM Post #48 |
|
Bull-Carp
|
Hey, I'm allowing for paid commission on the gross sales. After all we must all be cognizant that there's a margin to keep. |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Nov 4 2005, 06:22 PM Post #49 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
Certainly, Jeffrey. I'd be happy to respond. Just as soon as you tell me how you know, for certain, that your captive is an al-Qaeda operative, and how you know that he has knowledge of terrorist strikes in the planning state. Don't make it an assumption. Tell me how it's possible to be certain that your captive, who hasn't been tried for any crime, is an al-Qaeda operative ... and, even if he is, how you know that he has knowledge of terrorist strikes in the planning state. Because, otherwise, it's just possible that you're torturing an innocent man. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| Jeffrey | Nov 4 2005, 07:03 PM Post #50 |
|
Senior Carp
|
Gladly, Quirt. You just captured Kalid Sheik Mohammed, operations officer of Al Quaida, after a gunfight, in Karachi, Pakistan, after receiving a tip from an informant. This is an actual case, widely publicized, so you can't claim I am making stuff up. You have his picture, and you captured computer files with appropriate indentifying information on it. Now your turn. Again, I would like some solution-oriented, practical strategies. Hand waving moral rhetoric may make you feel all nice and cozy, but will seem to me to be avoiding the real topic: How do you get the guy to talk? I could care less about Kantian rhetoric, or what Rick Z thinks of the country. I think it is immoral and a shirking of our moral duties *not* to torture the guy for info. It is immoral not to torture him, if that will in fact save lives of innocent people (since he has given up his right to bodily and mental integrity by virtue of having joined Al Quaida). I want some non-torture oriented practical strategies. And skip the nonsense about how torture doesn't work - of course it works. It worked on KSM, and we zapped some of his buddies in Yemen as a result of his "help". |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic » |







I'm not, i just had to dislodge a piece of cucumber in my teeth. :mellow:


6:29 AM Jul 11