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Will They Ever Learn?
Topic Started: Nov 3 2005, 09:15 PM (975 Views)
Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
What the hell is going on?

First, we we find out we are torturing prisoners at Guantanamo.

And if that is not bad enough, we fdnd that Bush and his buddies took over Saddam's own torture chambers and turn them into American torture chambers.

Now we find out that the CIA has set up a secret network of prisons in Eastern Europe, using the Soviet Gulags as American prisons! Can we call the network an achepelago, do you think? What were they thinkning after the scandal in Iraq?

Then when you put this together with Cheney's pressure to kill the legislation which will outlaw torture of prisoners we hold and the threat that Bush will veto it if he can't authorize torture, one really has to wonder what the hell is going on? When did the United States become this? When did the US become a symbol of torture and illegal imprisonment rather than freedom and justice?

The GOP Congress will never fully investigate the American gulags in Eastern Europe. While they have undertaken a couple of showcase investigations, they have yet to fully investigate anything about the abominations of this Administration.

Thank goodness our allies in the European Union are willing to step in where our own Congress has failed and has decided to investigate the CIA's secret prison network. Maybe we'll actually get some truth for a change.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Why don't you just get out of the country then.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
Larry
Nov 3 2005, 10:19 PM
Why don't you just get out of the country then.

Because if all of the good people leave, the only people left will be the torturers.

Americans are not torturers. It's just not the way we do things around here.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I think you need a whole lot more than about a hundred detainees to qualify as a gulag, Rick. I will check on that but I believe precedent is overwhelmingly with me.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Steve Miller
Nov 4 2005, 12:23 AM
Larry
Nov 3 2005, 10:19 PM
Why don't you just get out of the country then.

Because if all of the good people leave, the only people left will be the torturers.

Americans are not torturers. It's just not the way we do things around here.

Who is being tortured? I don't believe Rick provided any specifics, maybe you have some to share.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Because if all of the good people leave, the only people left will be the torturers.

Americans are not torturers. It's just not the way we do things around here.


So naive..... the only difference between the past and now is that we used to be able to keep our covert operations secret, and we didn't have as many whining pansies to deal with.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
Who is being tortured? I don't believe Rick provided any specifics, maybe you have some to share.


Chaining someone on the floor overnight, so that he freezes to death, would seem to qualify as specifics.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
There is a big difference between interrogation techniques to wear a subject's resistance down and torture.

Torture involves being tied in painful positions for hours, lacerations, burns and electric shock, removal of body parts such as fingernails, terrorizing the subject by putting guns to their head, mock executions, that sort of thing.

Do you have evidence of this Rick? Or would it simply be convenient for your world view.

I guess we could just pray with them. Everyone get out your Korans, now.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
QuirtEvans
Nov 4 2005, 06:26 AM
Quote:
 
Who is being tortured? I don't believe Rick provided any specifics, maybe you have some to share.


Chaining someone on the floor overnight, so that he freezes to death, would seem to qualify as specifics.

Real victims of torture would find being chained to the floor over night a pleasure.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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tcmod
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QuirtEvans
Nov 4 2005, 03:26 AM
Quote:
 
Who is being tortured? I don't believe Rick provided any specifics, maybe you have some to share.


Chaining someone on the floor overnight, so that he freezes to death, would seem to qualify as specifics.

Is that torture?? Or just a practical joke gone really really wrong? Come on...you know they were just joking around and didn't mean it.
Dead girls don't say no, but you still have to buy them flowers
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Wacki Iraqi
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JBryan
Nov 4 2005, 04:04 AM
QuirtEvans
Nov 4 2005, 06:26 AM
Quote:
 
Who is being tortured? I don't believe Rick provided any specifics, maybe you have some to share.


Chaining someone on the floor overnight, so that he freezes to death, would seem to qualify as specifics.

Real victims of torture would find being chained to the floor over night a pleasure.

"SO THAT HE FREEZES TO DEATH"
So you know what a real victim is do you?......................gas prices still too high are they?..................Do try to read a whole thread instead of the bit that suits you sir. If your going to say ignorant things at least be completely ignorant and then we can find and excuse for you.

"Learning" it seems requires the capacity to think................(fill in your own word here)

Your avatar exposes your excitement at the thought of torture old man. :sword:
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Larry
Nov 3 2005, 09:34 PM
Because if all of the good people leave, the only people left will be the torturers.

Americans are not torturers. It's just not the way we do things around here.


So naive..... the only difference between the past and now is that we used to be able to keep our covert operations secret, and we didn't have as many whining pansies to deal with.

Now, Larry the torturer. An outstanding addition to your logic box Larry.
They'll be sirens you can hear in the distance Larry. They're gonna find those missing strings on your piano and put two and two together. I say they start by looking in the basement for missing local children Mr Barlow.
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Larry
Nov 3 2005, 09:34 PM
Because if all of the good people leave, the only people left will be the torturers.

Americans are not torturers. It's just not the way we do things around here.


So naive..... the only difference between the past and now is that we used to be able to keep our covert operations secret, and we didn't have as many whining pansies to deal with.

Aw, exposed by a bunch of flowers eh Larry? Things are not going well for torturers everywhere are they Larry? Those darn pacifists seem to be locking you up and taking you down.........how did the naive get so powerful seeing as they're so dumb? :wave2:
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Wacki Iraqi
Nov 4 2005, 07:41 AM
JBryan
Nov 4 2005, 04:04 AM
QuirtEvans
Nov 4 2005, 06:26 AM
Quote:
 
Who is being tortured? I don't believe Rick provided any specifics, maybe you have some to share.


Chaining someone on the floor overnight, so that he freezes to death, would seem to qualify as specifics.

Real victims of torture would find being chained to the floor over night a pleasure.

"SO THAT HE FREEZES TO DEATH"

Real victims of torture would find freezing to death a pleasure.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
http://www.loompanics.com/cgi-local/SoftCa....html?E+scstore
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Larry
Nov 3 2005, 09:34 PM


So naive.....

:yawn:
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I am still waiting for the outrage over the leaking of this classified operation. We were supposed to commence impeachment proceedings against the president when the world learned something that could be found out by following a certain woman to work every morning. Yet, the leaking of information that could endanger real covert agents and methods draws a collective yawn from our erstwhile friends of the CIA.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
JBryan
Nov 4 2005, 05:05 AM
I am still waiting for the outrage over the leaking of this classified operation. We were supposed to commence impeachment proceedings against the president when the world learned something that could be found out by following a certain woman to work every morning. Yet, the leaking of information that could endanger real covert agents and methods draws a collective yawn from our erstwhile friends of the CIA.

Yeah, but surely if the leaked information exposes a scandalous series of crimes, all confidentiality is off so to speak?
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Mikhailoh
Nov 4 2005, 03:28 AM
There is a big difference between interrogation techniques to wear a subject's resistance down and torture.

Torture involves being tied in painful positions for hours, lacerations, burns and electric shock, removal of body parts such as fingernails, terrorizing the subject by putting guns to their head, mock executions, that sort of thing.

Do you have evidence of this Rick? Or would it simply be convenient for your world view.

I guess we could just pray with them. Everyone get out your Korans, now.

What's all this protestation over the sanctity of torture..............are you 3 afraid they'll confiscate your gimp suits? :wink:
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Wacki Iraqi
Nov 4 2005, 08:11 AM
JBryan
Nov 4 2005, 05:05 AM
I am still waiting for the outrage over the leaking of this classified operation. We were supposed to commence impeachment proceedings against the president when the world learned something that could be found out by following a certain woman to work every morning. Yet, the leaking of information that could endanger real covert agents and methods draws a collective yawn from our erstwhile friends of the CIA.

Yeah, but surely if the leaked information exposes a scandalous series of crimes, all confidentiality is off so to speak?

What is the scandalous series of crimes that has been exposed?
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
I am still waiting for the outrage over the leaking of this classified operation. We were supposed to commence impeachment proceedings against the president when the world learned something that could be found out by following a certain woman to work every morning. Yet, the leaking of information that could endanger real covert agents and methods draws a collective yawn from our erstwhile friends of the CIA.


To repeat what I have said before: it's very different to expose a practice than to name a particular agent. Moreover, the Post was at least somewhat sensitive to the "outing" concerns ... they didn't name the particular Eastern European countries because the Bush Administration asked them not to.

There's no way to attack an immoral and unethical practice without exposing it. That's not the same thing as putting an agent's name out there.

You're smart enough to see that difference, JB.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
First, as I said before, merely exposing the existence of such an operation endangers it. We should not give our enemies information like that. Far better that they not know about it at all then have them simply faced with the task of finding it or thwarting its methods.

Second, I would agree that an immoral or unethical practice should be exposed wherever found. That does not seem to be the case here.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
The comparison of CIA safe houses in third countries, purportedly located in former Warsaw Pact nations, to the Soviet GULAG is pure hysterical hyperbole. If such safe houses exist and are under the direction of the CIA or MI6 is it not an internal matter for the host governments to address? Seems to me it's up to them whether to permit the CIA to operate the safe houses in the first place and it is their responsibility to establish the parameters by which the foreign intelligence operatives manage those safe houses.

The media and voting public should just keep their noses out of how intelligence gathering is conducted and the manner in which terrorists are detained. It is sufficient that they are fed and kept out of the elements and provided medical attention when necessary.
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
Larry
Nov 3 2005, 10:34 PM
Because if all of the good people leave, the only people left will be the torturers.

Americans are not torturers. It's just not the way we do things around here.


So naive..... the only difference between the past and now is that we used to be able to keep our covert operations secret, and we didn't have as many whining pansies to deal with.

Haven't seen Christians like this since the Spanish Inquisition!
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
Double post.
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