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| Democrats coming unhinged; As if you couldn't tell that already | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 3 2005, 12:15 AM (1,518 Views) | |
| Dewey | Nov 4 2005, 09:27 AM Post #76 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Pretty much what ended up occurring. The nuts. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 4 2005, 09:27 AM Post #77 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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The tyranny of the Federal Government??? Since when do Americans need a reason to arm themselves? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Nov 4 2005, 09:56 AM Post #78 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Where free speech is concerned, we are all quite willing to say that, just because you're free to speak, that doesn't mean that there will not be consequences. The same is certainly true for arming up. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 4 2005, 10:25 AM Post #79 |
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Bull-Carp
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Spent some time browsing about these Davidians from various sites. An offshoot of SDA's millenarianists. Quite possibly a closet communists or worse, anachists. Seems that this Koresh character had quite an messianic opinion of himself and considered the US to be the great Satan. IMO had he lived longer he therefore may have found common cause with Mr. Bin Laden and his evil doer ilk. Still don't see any need for Koresh and his followers to have refused to recognize the legitimate authority of US state and federal laws. Nor do I see the any rationale to stockpile weapons (which, from what I can gather, was against the pacifist nature of the Davidian sect) other than provocation and possible insurgency. Appears to have been internal reactionary threat, albeit small and probably localized to the Waco locale, that hide behind the veil of religion but was primarily ideologically driven. |
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| Jolly | Nov 4 2005, 11:53 AM Post #80 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Koresh was known to frequently drive into Waco, to shop, or hang out. In the "old days", when government agents were actually a bit less gung-ho on peace through superior firepower, standard procedure would be an innocent-looking roadblock...stage a fender-bender scene, or a farmer with a broke down tractor blocking both sides of the highway. Isolate the suspect, take him by surprise, and arrest him as far away from innocent people as possible. If I remember correctly, the reason for raiding the compound was the possibilty of child abuse...I do not know if this was ever proven. Strange and weird parenting in a cult, true. It's not illegal to be a bit nuts in the USA.... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 4 2005, 11:57 AM Post #81 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Yes, the allegations (or "pretext") were about child abuse. Of course, terrorising children with 24 hour rock music blared in during the siege, snipers taking shots at people, tear gas, chemical weapons, a tank assault, and burning them out somehow does not meet the guidelines for "child abuse" under Janet Reno. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 4 2005, 01:51 PM Post #82 |
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Bull-Carp
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Chemical Weapons!? Sarin? VX? Mustard Gas? As well, ATF raided Mt. Carmel on February 28 based on a search warrant for illegal firearms and explosives (ref: Weapons Possessed by the Branch Davidians) in which four ATF officers were shot. A standoff ensued until April 19 when all hell broke loose. A six week standoff? Surely Koresh and co. ought to have figured out by then that sooner or later law enforcement patience was going to run out. But then I keep forgetting that these nutcases in Waco were protecting their First and Second Amendment rights. Odd that the same righteous indignation is not extended to the Oglala Sioux at Wounded Knee in 1973: Wounded Knee Takeover, 1973 |
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| John D'Oh | Nov 4 2005, 01:58 PM Post #83 |
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MAMIL
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| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Dewey | Nov 4 2005, 02:14 PM Post #84 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Okay, Wounded Knee occurred when I was thirteen, and I have only a vague notion of the details. I would suppose there's been no discussion about it in this thread because, until now, it hadn't been referenced. So to learn/relearn aobut the incident, I followed your link. I got through the first paragraph: "On February 27, 1973, in the village of Wounded Knee on the Pine Ridge Sioux Reservation in South Dakota, about two hundred Sioux Indians led by American Indian Movement (AIM) activists seized control of a Catholic church, a trading post, and a museum near the gravesite of the Lakotas killed in the 1890 Wounded Knee Massacre. It was a reaction to and an outgrowth of the difficulties generally faced by Indians in the United States, but it was prompted by events on and near the Pine Ridge Sioux Reservation." I don't recall the nutty Davidians forcefully seizing other people's property, if I recall, they pretty much stayed to themselves, on their own compound. Before I read any further, this paragraph alone would make it very difficult, if not impossible, for me to come down on the Indians' side here, or to draw a parallel between WK and Waco. Still, I'll reserve judgment and keep reading... |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Jolly | Nov 4 2005, 02:18 PM Post #85 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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I've had the BATmen come over for coffee more than once. 'nary a time did they show up in combat gear, wielding M-16s and MP-5s. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 4 2005, 02:40 PM Post #86 |
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Bull-Carp
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Other people's property, Dwain? It's All About the Land: The Issue Behind Wounded Knee |
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| Larry | Nov 4 2005, 03:11 PM Post #87 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Dwain, you must remember that any time an Indian takes land away from someone else it is the other person that's squatting....... ![]() Now - all you non-Indians....... give it back!....... |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Jeffrey | Nov 4 2005, 04:26 PM Post #88 |
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Senior Carp
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Quirt: "just because you're free to speak, that doesn't mean that there will not be consequences. The same is certainly true for arming up. Not sure I follow your logic here, Quirt. Could you spell it out? Why exactly do people deserve to be killed because they say they don't like the gummint? |
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| Jeffrey | Nov 4 2005, 04:40 PM Post #89 |
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Senior Carp
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Steve: "the allegations (or "pretext") were about child abuse. Of course, terrorising children with 24 hour rock music blared in during the siege, snipers taking shots at people, tear gas, chemical weapons, a tank assault, and burning them out somehow does not meet the guidelines for "child abuse" under Janet Reno." Well put, Steve, here and above. Religious freedom from government interference is not just for big religions, but for small ones as well. The Branch Davidians never did me any harm. Whose the government to say that their way of life is "child abuse" and send in the cops? The government could kill them because their way of life was different, and no one spoke out on their behalf (who wants to defend "child abusers" who are part of some non-standard religious group called a "cult")? Who exactly gets to define what religions are "cults" that do not deserve protection from assault and which are not?? (I will note, however, that Steve's correct defense of the Branch Davidians is inconsistant with his desire elsewhere to abolish the separation of church and state on abortion and host of other issues, and thereby impose his personal religion on others by coercive force of law. But he is correct that the brutal and heavy-handed BATF assault on the Branch Davidians was state murder, pure and simple.) |
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| QuirtEvans | Nov 4 2005, 05:18 PM Post #90 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Not liking the government, and arming yourself to the teeth and taking potshots at government agents, are two different things. Just as thinking that someone is an asshole, and shouting that in their face, are two different things. If you think it, there are no consequences. If you shout it in their face, there just may be a consequence, and it's totally forseeable. If you take potshots at government agents, there are forseeable consequences, too. And do you know what? If we were talking Iraq, you'd all be saying the same thing. Anyone who takes potshots at a government agent (in the case of Iraq, a soldier) is going to find the entire mighty wrath of the U.S. government descending on their head. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Jack Frost | Nov 4 2005, 05:49 PM Post #91 |
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Bull-Carp
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So Dwain you think it's all about PROPERTY? jf |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 4 2005, 06:51 PM Post #92 |
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Bull-Carp
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Oddly enough I think both Jack and larry get it.
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| Jeffrey | Nov 4 2005, 07:08 PM Post #93 |
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Senior Carp
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Quirt - Please document where Koresh took potshots at government agents. They may or may not have some technical violations of gun permits. That's it. That certainly did not justify torturing children for weeks and then killing a couple of score of them. The Davidians were polygamists, and gun owners, and didn't fit in with others. Koresh agreed to a peaceful meeting with the BATF to resolve any gun ownership technicalities, but was turned down. The BATF just wanted to justify their existence. What if the government decides that your religion is nuts, and goes after you?? In general, you seem misinformed as to the facts of the case, in line with the government coverup of their crimes (remember Quirt - the government never lies - not in Iraq and not in Waco). Here is some more info: http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/waco.massacre.html |
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| JBryan | Nov 4 2005, 07:19 PM Post #94 |
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I am the grey one
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The Branch Davidians did bring the wrath of the federal government down on them but after they took shots at a paramilitary style raid on their compound. It was the wrong thing to do to be sure but the raid was totally over the top and uncalled for. As was mentioned earlier, David Karesh could often be seen right in town all alone and apprehending him would have been an easy matter. However, at the same time the ATF was lobbying Congress for more funds to support their paramiltary operations and it has been thought by many that the Branch Davidian compound was an inviting place to show off to Congress what their operation could do. It backfired badly. Yes, the Branch Davidians screwed up in their response to the raid but at that point they were suspected of no crimes except possible weapons violations and the cooked up child abuse story. There really was no evidence to support either one. The raid was an abuse of government power. The Bush I and the Clinton Administrations can share the blame for that. The final assault on the compound was solely the responsibility of Clinton and Reno. Someone said Clinton took responsibility. I might be mistaken but I sure don't recall that. As I remember he sort of let Janet Reno take the arrows. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 4 2005, 09:35 PM Post #95 |
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Bull-Carp
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If your religion is nuts and unarmed then the g'ovt has no justifiable reason to go after you. On the other hand, if your religion is at the same time both nuts and armed, the g'ovt is obliged to go after you. But then I don't subscribe to either the first or second amendments. Neither are part of my traditional Weltanschauung.
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| ivorythumper | Nov 4 2005, 10:41 PM Post #96 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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So that makes something like 8 things we agree on. And ONCE AGAIN to clarify -- in the public forum I make no religious argument against abortion. As much as you want to insist that it has something to do with "ensoulment" understood as a religious construct, that is not my argument. I understand that you've already indicated that accuracy in representing your opponents' argument is of little concern to you, but there are others here who might otherwise be misled by your rhetoric. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Nov 5 2005, 03:50 AM Post #97 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Here's a somewhat less hysterical description of what happened.
And I'll repeat part of that for emphasis:
Again, if it was Iraq, and soldiers claimed to hear shots from a heavily fortified building that they were trying to enter, you wouldn't have any problem at all justifying the government action in response. Even if it was ultimately proved that the soldiers were wrong, and didn't hear shots (which was never proved here). |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Jeffrey | Nov 5 2005, 06:06 AM Post #98 |
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Senior Carp
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Quirt: Note the lead of your allegedly objective article: "A Texas newspaper had investigated reports that Koresh had abused children in the building, and was publishing a series about the allegations at the time of the raid. Koresh openly advocated polygamy for himself and selected others in the group, and asserted himself married to several female residents of the small community. His sect was said by some to be a cult for its authoritarian structure. Survivors of the raids, former members, and families of members have widely varying accounts of the group's beliefs, practices, and demeanor." Your article didn't start off with shooting at cops or anything like that. They started off with scandal stories of different lifestyles, obviously intended to reduce reader sympathy for the victims of the assault. As to who shot first - the BATF laid seige to the Davidians, blared torture-technique cat screams at them to disrupt their sleep and mental stability for weeks on end (I see now you approve of torture techniques, but not against Al Quaida), and then at the end of it, there is a disputed account of who shot first after a military seige and storming of their compound after Koresh previously agreed to a peaceful meeting to discuss issues, and could have been apprehended in town many times without the BATF show of force. Also, with regard to your retailing stories of alleged child abuse, how come when we capture KSM, operations officer of Al Quaida, you insist that we can't assume anything about him without, apparently, a jury trial, but you retail totally unproven allegations of child abuse against the Davidians. A double standard, Quirt. The Davidians are guilty until proven innocent, KSM needs to be treated as innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, at least according to you. I'll take my stand for civil liberties and restraint of government power with the Davidians, and not with KSM. |
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| QuirtEvans | Nov 5 2005, 06:17 AM Post #99 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Totally disputed, and, in any event, Koresh agreed to many things and then changed his mind. Much like Sadaam.
All this proves is that you don't understand the issue. KSM was in custody; Koresh was not. In each case, I'm suggesting that the person involved should be tried and given an opportunity to defend themselves. Koresh was innocent until proven guilty, but he was subject to arrest, pursuant to a validly issued warrant. Koresh had a chance to surrender peacefully, in connection with a valid warrant; he refused to do so. The feds got a valid warrant for his arrest, based on charges of child abuse; they had a right to arrest him and hold him over for trial, whether he liked it or not. His resistance is what led to the disaster. If the feds had been able to take him into custody, I absolutely do not think they should have tortured him. The feds were right to use force to apprehend KSM, and they were right to use force to apprehend Koresh, when each resisted. My standard is entirely singular and consistent. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| JBryan | Nov 5 2005, 07:17 AM Post #100 |
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I am the grey one
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"One-sided" is how I would describe it. I really don't want to rehash this issue but I will say that this article provides a very superficial look at all that went on. There was a lengthy Congressional investigation of this matter that exposed many inconsistencies between the charges the ATF were making (some of them detailed in this article) and the facts. There were many criticisms leveled at ATF and they were forced to reform their operation as a result. As I said, I don't want to rehash this because it stretched out over years of investigation but you would do well to do more than google up a few newspaper articles. In the end, the FBI was, largely, exonerated but ATF was not and they started the whole mess. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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