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Democrats coming unhinged; As if you couldn't tell that already
Topic Started: Nov 3 2005, 12:15 AM (1,520 Views)
John D'Oh
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MAMIL
You don't think slavery was a major abuse of power?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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The 89th Key
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Please, show me ron how republicans are abusing power and conducting like criminals. Also, please show me how you can lump everyone in to the same boat.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
That they had a chance to leave their man, but chose to ignore reason, as the Bush Davidians do now. (As to criminal conduct and abuse of power, well I think the Repubicans are showing their true colors! That's one thing they are really familiar with...)

Obviously you haven't thought much about anything - other than how to justify your hatred of Bush.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Quote:
 
You don't think slavery was a major abuse of power?


Okay, well, for one, slavery is just wrong; abuse of power is putting it lightly. For two, slavery really wasn't part of Civil War politics until it was in full swing, and even then it was done so kind of half-heartedly. And for three, I'm not saying Lincoln abused his power or that I don't like him as a president, but merely that the argument could be made he stretched the hell out of his executive authority.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
John D'Oh
Nov 3 2005, 12:08 PM
You don't think slavery was a major abuse of power?

Slavery was morally reprehensible, a vile practice with no justification. But it wasn't an abuse of power, because slavery was legal. It shouldn't have been, and being legal doesn't make slavery right. But being legal *does* mean that no one was abusing power.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
rontuner
Nov 3 2005, 12:07 PM
Yes, Ron. We remember the Davidians -- those AMERICANS who were slaughtered -- man, woman and child -- by the US Government under Clinton and Reno. What again was your point?

That they had a chance to leave their man, but chose to ignore reason, as the Bush Davidians do now. (As to criminal conduct and abuse of power, well I think the Repubicans are showing their true colors! That's one thing they are really familiar with...)

Says who?

The same bunch that murdered a family pet, and then expected a country kid not to use the gun in his hand? So they killed the kid?

The same bunch that shot a pregnant woman on her own front porch, when all she did was open a door?

The same bunch that started a major assault upon a private residence because of a shotgun barrel sawed off 1/4" too short?

The same bunch that decided the best way to get the Davidians, was to bring in a special ops team, with automatic weapons?

The same bunch that felt the best way to take a child out of a Miami residence was at the business end of an H&K MP5 submachinegun?

Are you sure you really want to argue this line of reasoning?...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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The 89th Key
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A few clinton records, including the Bush years...

- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance

- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates

- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation

- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify

- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly

- First president sued for sexual harassment.

- First president accused of rape.

- First first lady to come under criminal investigation

- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case

- First president to establish a legal defense fund.

- First president to be held in contempt of court

- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions

- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad

- First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a state court

:lol: Way to go slick! I'll start this in another thread...
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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Slavery was morally reprehensible, a vile practice with no justification. But it wasn't an abuse of power, because slavery was legal. It shouldn't have been, and being legal doesn't make slavery right. But being legal *does* mean that no one was abusing power.


By that argument the Nazis didn't abuse power either. I was actually responding to the post that said that Lincoln was the biggest abuser of power in US history.

Edit - I can't type fast enough to keep up with this, so I'm answering questions which have been clarified already. :blink:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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John D'Oh
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A few clinton records, including the Bush years...


[Snip]

Clinton wasn't perfect by any means, however there's more than a touch of the witch-hunt about the list you posted.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Larry
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By that argument the Nazis didn't abuse power either.

Well, you do have a point. To a point.....

Slave owners weren't gathering up black people and sending them to gas chambers either. Not to polish the reputation of slavery, but most slaves were well cared for, because they had a value to the slave owner. It wasn't legal to own a Jew, so the circumstances weren't the same. Hitler rounded up and killed people who weren't "owned" or considered property. Slavery bought and sold people as free labor in accordance with the law, not to kill them. I need to restate this - slavery was abhorent and flat out wrong. Killing Jews was abhorent and flat out wrong as well. But you cannot make a comparison there to show slavery to be an abuse of power in the way killing Jews was an abuse of power, because they simply aren't the same thing.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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The 89th Key
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Witch hunt? I believe 38 of his closest team members and friends plead GUILTY.

I don't remember any witches pleading guilty...
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John D'Oh
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Well, you do have a point. To a point.....

Slave owners weren't gathering up black people and sending them to gas chambers either. Not to polish the reputation of slavery, but most slaves were well cared for, because they had a value to the slave owner. It wasn't legal to own a Jew, so the circumstances weren't the same. Hitler rounded up and killed people who weren't "owned" or considered property. Slavery bought and sold people as free labor in accordance with the law, not to kill them. I need to restate this - slavery was abhorent and flat out wrong. Killing Jews was abhorent and flat out wrong as well. But you cannot make a comparison there to show slavery to be an abuse of power in the way killing Jews was an abuse of power, because they simply aren't the same thing.


I agree, and I wasn't trying to imply that slavery was akin to Nazism in all it's aspects. The point I was making was that within Nazi Germany and countries conquered by it, it was legal to murder Jews, etc. Hence, by your earlier logic this was not an abuse of power. I think we're actually arguing over semantics, since both practices are clearly both abominable, and worse than anything that even Janet Reno did.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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John D'Oh
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Witch hunt? I believe 38 of his closest team members and friends plead GUILTY.

I don't remember any witches pleading guilty...


Quite a large number of the points on your list are nothing more than insinuation. Most witnesses to die? Come on, you can do better than that. That's like me saying Bush - 'most moronic gaffes in public speeches since that other republican genius, L. Danforth Quayle.'

Or maybe you're in marketing?
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The 89th Key
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Well take that one out...it's a bit odd, I agree.

Yes, I'm in marketing. :P
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John D'Oh
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Well take that one out...it's a bit odd, I agree.


You need to take out all the one's where he wasn't found guilty as well. Clinton wasn't that bad a president from my perspective. There have certainly been worse.
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rontuner
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"Says who?" (from Jolly)

Ah, I see all the Davidians are gathering about to defend their man... :) Using the same old smear & fear tactics as well.
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The 89th Key
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John D'Oh
Nov 3 2005, 03:52 PM
Quote:
 
Well take that one out...it's a bit odd, I agree.


You need to take out all the one's where he wasn't found guilty as well. Clinton wasn't that bad a president from my perspective. There have certainly been worse.

I actually agree very much.

My point was just all this finger pointing at Bush and his admin when really Clinton holds the records for MANY scandals, trials, etc...
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AlbertaCrude
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John D'Oh
Nov 3 2005, 12:15 PM
I was actually responding to the post that said that Lincoln was the biggest abuser of power in US history.


Let's see now. Until Lincoln it was assumed that all states were independent and voluntarily belonged to the Union and could secede at any time. Mr. Lincoln and his Administration did not see federalism in quite the same light and refused to evacuate Fort Sumter when asked. It was Mr. Lincoln who chose civil war over federalism.

To my knowledge the only state remaining in the Union that has a legal right to seceed is Texas- since they negotiated that as condition of joining the Union before the Civil War.

Seems to me federalism has lost out out to central government ever since Mr. Lincoln. He only looks good in the history books because he was abale to spin the civil war into a war against slavery rather than constitutional federalism. :sword:
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John D'Oh
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Seems to me federalism has lost out out to central government ever since Mr. Lincoln. He only looks good in the history books because he was abale to spin the civil war into a war against slavery rather than constitutional federalism.


Which kind of shows what an effective politician he was. Whether there was spin or not, slavery got abolished. To quote that other great liberal icon, the end justifies the means?

I'm not sure Lincolns actions can necessarily be described as an abuse of power. He may simply have been following his instincts for what was the right thing to do at the time.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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QuirtEvans
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Well, if you're going to do hyperbole, you might as well do it to the max, I guess. There have been much larger abuses of power in the history of the US, as you well know.


Yep, to some, Mr. Lincoln holds that title right nicely.


I was actually thinking about FDR and internment camps, myself. I take Larry's point that the despicable practice of slavery was, in fact, contemplated by the Constitution. Shameful, but there it is.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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AlbertaCrude
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John D'Oh
Nov 3 2005, 01:09 PM
To quote that other great liberal icon, the end justifies the means?

....He may simply have been following his instincts for what was the right thing to do at the time.

Or to quote the not so liberal icon, Leon Trotsky: "The end justifies the means provided the end is justifiable".

Slavery was dying on its own in the slave states- it was fast becoming economically untenable. In simple terminology it was becoming just too expensive to own and maintain slaves. Much cheaper to free them and retain their services as tenant farmers or as wage earners in factories.

Quote:
 
I was actually thinking about FDR and internment camps, myself.


A good example of an abuse of power that both Canada and the US share in equally.
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John D'Oh
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I was actually thinking about FDR and internment camps, myself


This too was a shameful episode. There are others, such as the McCarthy witchhunts. What is noticeable is that most of these abuses come in times of fear. To come back to my original point though, just because something is legal, doesn't mean it isn't an abuse of power.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
rontuner
Nov 3 2005, 01:07 PM
"Yes, Ron. We remember the Davidians -- those AMERICANS who were slaughtered -- man, woman and child -- by the US Government under Clinton and Reno. What again was your point? "

That they had a chance to leave their man, but chose to ignore reason, as the Bush Davidians do now.  (As to criminal conduct and abuse of power, well I think the Repubicans are showing their true colors!  That's one thing they are really familiar with...)

Oh, I see -- they "had their chance". And because they had some other sense of what freedom of religion and self determination was from the Reno Justice Department, they were executed with tanks, sniper rifles, and chemical warfare. You really want to defend the US against murderous attacks on its own citizens?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
rontuner
Nov 3 2005, 12:53 PM
"Says who?" (from Jolly)

Ah, I see all the Davidians are gathering about to defend their man... :) Using the same old smear & fear tactics as well.

Excuse me.

Defend, my posterior portions...

I gave you the examples, and this is the best refutation ya got? No wonder you guys are losing the hearts and minds of the American people.....
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Tim the Enchanter
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You know what time it's for?
Summoning up fire without flint or tinder since 1974.
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