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| Where Are The Christians; When you need them. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 2 2005, 05:12 PM (778 Views) | |
| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 05:12 PM Post #1 |
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Senior Carp
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Are there any Christians here who are opposed to the war in Iraq as it opposes their religious beliefs (thou shalt not kill etc, etc, etc, etc..........)? In biblical terms are there really enough pro violence references to keep the bloodthirsty Christians among us happy and pro the war? As an atheist i believe that the Christian perspective on this war has added a medieval element to my suspicions of the people of the Christian faith. This includes burning women as witches and torturing heretics. I got my ideas of the misrepresentation of the Christian faith from too many horror movies thinks i. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 2 2005, 05:16 PM Post #2 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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You should know that the Chaldean Bishops of Iraq are overwhelmingly and completely in favor of the western intervention against Saddam Hussein. Hussein's government was brutal and vicious == millions of Iraqis were tortured, killed, raped, imprisoned, and mutilated as a matter of policy. Where is your own humanistic atheistic outrage against such crimes, and your compassion for the victims? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| kathyk | Nov 2 2005, 05:23 PM Post #3 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Oh, Wacki, we're here. Fact is, most of the churches in the US took an official position against the war; honestly - this is true. The "Christians" speaking otherwise on this forum are somewhat of an aberration - sadly. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 2 2005, 05:35 PM Post #4 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Kathy: you won't get any brownie points kissing up to him. And you won't convince him that Christians are noble and not bloody minded. And don't condescend to putting "Christians" in quotes or thinking that anyone who disagrees with you is an aberration to the faith. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 05:57 PM Post #5 |
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Senior Carp
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As i thought Kathy. Why do *they* think they are Christians? |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 06:02 PM Post #6 |
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Senior Carp
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Who does she really need to get brownie points from then I.T............you is it? Is there a Christian faith that can adequately consist of consenting violence and pacifism? Oh let's ask "what would Jesus do"? |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| kathyk | Nov 2 2005, 06:18 PM Post #7 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I agree. Asking what Jesus would do (without some preconceived answer, mind you) is a very good exercise, for anyone of any religion, i.e. "what would Mohammed, Buddha, Confucious . .. . do?." And no, violence and Christianity don't mix. As, to kissing up to Wacki, IT, well . . thanks for the fantasy. If ever I had to kiss up to a mug, there's one I could do without a whole lot of pain.
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| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 06:20 PM Post #8 |
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Senior Carp
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Surpassed by the new and deadlier strain of inhumane aggressor. Saddam Hussein failed miserably to dominate his own country let alone the world. Everyone could stop talking about what Saddam did he was lunacidal and is and will be paying for his evil. America is far bigger and deadlier in the eyes of the resistance. If they did't want to appear so frightening to the rest of the world they may have operated differently. It is my observation that they did want to appear as deadly as possible to any potential threat, they just can't deal with the consequences. I keep saying America (like a lot of people) when i mean this disconnected organisation that represents America. On my recent trip to the U.S i met the best people, it's a shame that this war has soiled a great nation in such a dirty underhand way and now the real America ha nothing to do but spend it's time apologising for it's miscreants. I suppose it's no different for most Muslims. We've all been truly hijacked. Some of us have fallen for the hijackers like shellshocked victims and the rest of us are just sick of their hysteria turning people on each other. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| kathyk | Nov 2 2005, 06:22 PM Post #9 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Amen! |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 06:25 PM Post #10 |
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Senior Carp
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Ooooh, now you're just supping up to muggins here like an especially thick ovaltine.
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| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| Dewey | Nov 2 2005, 07:24 PM Post #11 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Actually, most of us have been so busy scheduling book burnings, snake handlings, and trying to figure out how to play mp3's backward (it was so much easier with LPs) to look for satanic messages, to really give opposition to the war much thought. I thought that would have been obvious, since a reasoned, thoughtful consideration of the war from a Christian perspective couldn't possibly be made without opposing it - could it? Ah, wait, there's the rub... we're all just a bunch of medieval saps anyway, so dim that we actually believe all that religious fairy tale rubbish, so we couldn't actually make a reasoned, thoughtful consideration of the war in any case. So why would you even care about Christians' opinions anyway? |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 2 2005, 07:38 PM Post #12 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Kathy, to follow my earlier message, there is at least of structure of thinking in Christian social thought for determining whether a war is just or unjust. There is also a legitimate divergence of opinion on whether any particular military action is just or unjust -- say, WWII or even Iraq I or Iraq II. I am not entirely convinced that it meets all the (rather stringent) qualifications for a "just war" -- but when I think of the brutalities of Hussein, and our very real need to enforce the terms of the 1991 treaty that Hussein contemptuously ignored, a strong case can be made for Iraq II. This sort of prudential judgment can be readily contrasted with the liberal's position on abortion. There is not and never has been a tradition of Christian social thought that has ever allowed for abortion on demand. The "Christians" (to use your own condescending quotes) who would ever allow for this are the ones who are the aberration against 2000 years of Christian teaching. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Nina | Nov 2 2005, 09:06 PM Post #13 |
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Senior Carp
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Not to hijack, but can anyone point me to a source of how many Iraqis were killed during Saddam's reign, by Saddam or his goons? "Millions" seems a bit high to me, unless you're also counting those killed in the various wars he started. The estimates I've seen from the Iraqi gulag are about 200,000. Still mind-boggling. |
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| Larry | Nov 2 2005, 10:10 PM Post #14 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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http://s10.invisionfree.com/The_New_Coffee...pic=4062&st=150 61,000 in the city of Bagdhad 500,000 to 1,000,000 estimated to be the number of dead buried in mass graves 180,000 in the scorched-earth campaign known as the "Anfal", against the Kurds 60,000 when Saddam violently suppressed rebellions by Shiite Muslims in the south and Kurds in the north at the close of the 1991 Gulf War 50,000 political prisoners 500,000 in Saddam's war with Iran 4,000,000 Kurds are permanently suffering as a result of his chemical attack against them Random killings during a year from his rape rooms, torture chambers, live burnings, and ethnic-cleansing campaigns are estimated at around 20,000 per year, over a 35 year period, for another roughly 700,000 people. All told, best estimates indicate Saddam killed roughly 2.5 million people, or roughly 10% of the population of Iraq. Add in the permanently maimed 4 million, you have somewhere between 6 and 7 million people who either died or were permanently damaged by Saddam. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Nov 2 2005, 10:15 PM Post #15 |
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Fulla-Carp
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But did the Chaldean Bishops ask for war or just intervention? John Paul II believed and stated that the war was not a just war. he did all he could to stop it. Bush listened to him as much as Bush listened to everyone else -- not at all, unless they agreed with him. I agreed with John Paul II then; I agree with the idea now. It was never a just war. It remains an unjust war. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Larry | Nov 2 2005, 10:36 PM Post #16 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Saddam Hussein failed miserably to dominate his own country let alone the world. Geez.... that's about the most ridiculous statement you've made today - and it took a lot to top some of them. Saddam failed miserably to dominate Iraq........ wow....... now *that's* some deep thinking there, boy..... |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Klotz | Nov 2 2005, 10:48 PM Post #17 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Dwain : DON'T FEED THE TROLLS ! In my opinion, the OP behaviour is definitely trollish. Including the quotes around Christian. You know I'm an atheist, a former communist and yet , I think the OP makes every effort he can to offend posters at TNCR. Have a nice day, dear Reverend Lee .... |
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| Larry | Nov 2 2005, 11:16 PM Post #18 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Nah, I don't think you got it from watching movies. It's becoming increasingly clear that you simply aren't very smart. As to your question, yes there are Christians who oppose the war because of their religious beliefs, but there are also Christians who oppose having surgery based on their religious beliefs. They simply don't understand their own religion. They force fit their religious views through their own personal opinions, instead of taking the time to learn with an open mind. For instance, many people who use their religion as an excuse for opposing war will often quote Matthew 5:39 as their proof, which says "Whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also" - the old "turn the other cheek" argument. But in forcing it to mean what they want it to mean, they miss the entire point. If two men get in an aggressive situation and one takes a swing at the other, given that the vast majority of people are right handed, he would slap his opponent on the *left* cheek. But Jesus was quite specific in mentioning the *right* cheek. There's a reason. In a brawl, you get hit on your left cheek. If your intent was to insult your opponent, you slapped him on his right cheek. This was a Jewish custom of the day - slap someone on the right cheek to insult him. The verse in question is not telling you to be a pacifist, it is not telling you not to defend yourself, nor is it making a statement regarding war. It is saying that if someone insults you, don't insult them back. Now I freely admit that this is one area where I don't live up to the teachings of my religion. But it has nothing to do with defending those who cannot defend themselves, or protecting those who cannot protect themselves. Heck, it doesn't even tell me I can't get into a good knock down drag out fight. All it tells me is not to return an insult with another one. Some Christians argue that Jesus was a pacifist. To do this they must ignore over half the Bible. According to Christianity Jesus was not just a prophet with his own agenda, he was and is God. He is the same God who commanded the Israelites to go to war. The Psalmist David wrote in Psalms 144:1 "Blessed be the LORD my Rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle". The Bible says in Hebrews 13:8 that God is the same today, yesterday, and forevermore. He did not change His mind suddenly in the New Testament, so any teachings must be taken in that context. We have a record of Jesus meeting a Roman centurion--an army officer who most likely achieved his rank because he was skilled at battle. After talking with this soldier for a few minutes, Jesus did not tell him to put down his sword, nor did he tell him to retire from the military. Instead, he praised the man's faith, saying that he had more faith than anyone He had met (Matthew 8:5-13). So the idea that Jesus was a pacifist and fighting in a war is against the teachings of the Bible is without scriptural foundation. That doesn't mean that you should just go out and start a war however. We may be supposed to turn the other cheek if you insult us, but that doesn't mean we are required to sit on our hands and let those who intend to do us harm just have their way. We are not only allowed to defend ourselves against harm, we are required to defend those who cannot defend themselves. I'd say the people of Iraq qualify most certainly as a nation of people unable to defend themselves. No one in their right mind *wants* a war, Christian or not. But peace has never been gained through pacifism, and when a cruel dictator or government is killing his citizens by the tens of thousands, the Christian thing to do is to do whatever is necessary to stop it. The unfortunate reality of it all is that in the course of coming to the aid of the helpless some people will get killed. A pacifist naively focuses on this aspect of it all, and condemns those who do the defending, constructing little strawmen like you have done. But a Christian who is genuinely concerned for mankind and who is educated on the matter of what God expects of him as a Christian will not hesitate to step forward and defend those who cannot defend themselves. Instead of complaining about the unfortunate reality that some will die in the course of the defense, they look at the bigger picture with the realization that their efforts will mean that tens of thousands, possibly millions, will live who might have died had they not gone to their defense. In short, your strawman will only pass muster with those who profess to be Christian but who don't know anything about it. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 2 2005, 11:29 PM Post #19 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Rick: Are you somewhat naive? Do you really think that ANYONE could "ask" for intervention against Hussein while he was ruling the country and not have their tongue ripped out, their eyes gouged, their nieces gang raped in front of them, and their entire family eliminated? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Larry | Nov 2 2005, 11:34 PM Post #20 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Rick: Are you somewhat naive? Somewhat????? I'll have to come to Rick's defense here. He's definitely *not* somewhat naive. He's totally, freakin' off the charts naive. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| The 89th Key | Nov 3 2005, 06:39 AM Post #21 |
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Larry! You saved me from doing that work. I had some of those stats somewhere, but good post ole buddy! Many people don't understand how bad Saddam really was. |
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| The 89th Key | Nov 3 2005, 06:42 AM Post #22 |
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Wacki, back to your original post. My Christian beliefs have many times almost made me against the war. But then you have to look at it not just as people killing people. Saddam is responsible for 6-7 million casualties. He was threatening many, many more. We have lost 2,000 soldiers and many more insurgents. But the goal and accomplishments, both current and anticipated, will be certainly worth this. Would you die to save 10 people? I would. Funny enough, that's a Christian perspective too. |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 3 2005, 06:54 AM Post #23 |
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Senior Carp
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So where is he now Larry? This man has ended up in prison, facing a death sentence in his own country after being dragged out of a hole in the ground looking like Catweazel. You just can't help thinking of the world in the past tense can you dear? Clinton must burn deep.
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| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 3 2005, 07:04 AM Post #24 |
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Senior Carp
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I'll have another slice of piety................... *please* :rolleyes: |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| The 89th Key | Nov 3 2005, 07:11 AM Post #25 |
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Yes, thanks to people like us. If people like you ran the world, Saddam would still be allowed to murder and/or rape millions of his own people. Good Job!
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