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Proof!; Of something
Topic Started: Nov 2 2005, 03:21 PM (584 Views)
Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
I have a friend who is a criminal and has been for 30 years, he's quite rich and has a great standard of living and has never even recieved a parking ticket. I also know a guy who got a lot of respect for being a psycho no one would ever mess with him so he has never been a victim. I also have a friend who is the nicest guy on earth, he worked for save the children, he's very poor, his wife drowned and he now has cancer.
What does this prove about right and wrong?
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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tcmod
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Senior Carp
Don't know about right or wrong......

1. has been lucky

2. just hasn't run up against someone that could kick his ass...yet

3. has been unlucky
Dead girls don't say no, but you still have to buy them flowers
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
It's very strange. Who knows why some people are so lucky and others so unfortunate?

As for being good or evil (right or wrong) - We choose to do whatever what want. We are whoever we want to be. It's a shame that often the ones who have it good are the most vile people - but that's just it, I think: it's not that they're bad and so they have good lives, but rather that some people who have a really good life choose to be bad. Similarly, some people who have a really bad life choose to be good. It's not that they're good and so as a result they have a bad life.

But it seems like actions and fate should be connected, doesn't it? That people who choose to be bad should have bad lives, and that people who choose to be good should have good lives. But I guess it doesn't quite work like that.

:shrug:
Sam
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I think that if nothing else it proves that you have either a broad range of friends or a vivid imagination.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
Wacki Iraqi
Nov 2 2005, 07:21 PM
I have a friend who is a criminal and has been for 30 years, he's quite rich and has a great standard of living and has never even recieved a parking ticket. I also know a guy who got a lot of respect for being a psycho no one would ever mess with him so he has never been a victim. I also have a friend who is the nicest guy on earth, he worked for save the children, he's very poor, his wife drowned and he now has cancer.
What does this prove about right and wrong?

Nothing...except that maybe there isn't a God and right and wrong is something that WE have to create and affirm.

jf

Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jack Frost
Nov 2 2005, 11:00 PM
Wacki Iraqi
Nov 2 2005, 07:21 PM
I have a friend who is a criminal and has been for 30 years, he's quite rich and has a great standard of living and has never even recieved a parking ticket. I also know a guy who got a lot of respect for being a psycho no one would ever mess with him so he has never been a victim. I also have a friend who is the nicest guy on earth, he worked for save the children, he's very poor, his wife drowned and he now has cancer.
What does this prove about right and wrong?

Nothing...except that maybe there isn't a God and right and wrong is something that WE have to create and affirm.

jf

Doesn't really say that there is no God... just says that some people are lucky and others aren't, and luck doesn't seem to be influenced at all by our actions.

(There are good people who have good lives and good people who have bad lives. There are bad people who have bad lives and bad people who have good lives.)
Sam
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
pianojerome
Nov 2 2005, 11:04 PM
Jack Frost
Nov 2 2005, 11:00 PM
Wacki Iraqi
Nov 2 2005, 07:21 PM
I have a friend who is a criminal and has been for 30 years, he's quite rich and has a great standard of living and has never even recieved a parking ticket. I also know a guy who got a lot of respect for being a psycho no one would ever mess with him so he has never been a victim. I also have a friend who is the nicest guy on earth, he worked for save the children, he's very poor, his wife drowned and he now has cancer.
What does this prove about right and wrong?

Nothing...except that maybe there isn't a God and right and wrong is something that WE have to create and affirm.

jf

Doesn't really say that there is no God... just says that some people are lucky and others aren't, and luck doesn't seem to be influenced at all by our actions.

(There are good people who have good lives and good people who have bad lives. There are bad people who have bad lives and bad people who have good lives.)

Again, perhpas proof there is no God....

jf


Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jack Frost
Nov 2 2005, 08:00 PM
Wacki Iraqi
Nov 2 2005, 07:21 PM
I have a friend who is a criminal and has been for 30 years, he's quite rich and has a great standard of living and has never even recieved a parking ticket. I also know a guy who got a lot of respect for being a psycho no one would ever mess with him so he has never been a victim. I also have a friend who is the nicest guy on earth, he worked for save the children, he's very poor, his wife drowned and he now has cancer.
What does this prove about right and wrong?

Nothing...except that maybe there isn't a God and right and wrong is something that WE have to create and affirm.

jf

Yeah, Jack -- you must be right. Anyone who commits an act of violence against you and your family is not doing anything objectively wrong -- it is just our moralistic conventions that make it wrong. :rolleyes2:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
So there's something that doesn't seem fair, and that therefore is perhaps proof that there is no God?

---

Sometimes, good things do happen to good people and bad things do happen to bad people. That's "fair". So is that perhaps proof that God does exist?

During the winter, the ground is frozen solid, covered with snow. In the spring, the ground softens, and flowers bloom. So perhaps that is proof that there is a God?

A man and a woman get married, and nine months later they bring a new life into the world. It's a miracle, isn't it? Is that perhaps proof that there is a God?


I don't quite buy the notion that if something bad or unfair or unexplainable happens, then there must not be a god. I also don't buy the argument that if something particularly good happens, then that must be proof that there is a God.

It's not so simple.
Sam
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
I do not have God guiding my moral compass.
Yet I do all of the stuff I'm supposed to.

Why?

Well, it improves the odds of having a nice life.
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
Ah, Wack, there's no proof when it comes to such things. For Christians it's faith, for Hindus it's Karma. IMO, it translates to the same thing - goodness begets goodness; evil begets evil. Whether one has traditional or dogmatic faith or simply leads a life of morals and conviction, I personaly think they'll end up somewhere in the same sphere. I know that goes against Calvanistic, elitist, "chosen" convictions, but frankly, since I was five, coudn't swallow that notion, and deep inside, I know that Christ couldn't either. Bottom line - none us knows, so do what feel right. Have you ever read any C.S. Lewis?
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
Yes, you do good things, because it improves your odds of having a nice life.

:smile:


What "stuff" are you "supposed" to do? What are good actions? In a sense, religious people get certain ideas of what's right and wrong from God. BUT... that's not completely it. Whether God exists or not - people do differentiate between right and wrong. We do things that we think are good, and we avoid doing things that are bad, not because we're afraid of punishment - but because we really believe that certain actions are better than other actions. We really do believe in right vs. wrong, regardless of what God says. (But religious people do believe that God sets down many morals.)


God doesn't tell us everything about how we deal with every aspect of life. A lot of it we have to figure out on our own. Religious people believe that God gives us certain moral guidelines, but many other moral decisions we make on our own - they don't all come from God.


So where would a non-religious person like Kenny get his morals from? He gets them from his parents who taught him to be a good person. He got them from his own intiuition as to what's good and what's not. Because being good to others is important, not only from a religious point of view.

I believe that even if there were never a God, many people would still have certain moral guidelines, because people tend to want to do the "right" thing.
Sam
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Nov 2 2005, 11:22 PM
Ah, Wack, there's no proof when it comes to such things. For Christians it's faith, for Hindus it's Karma. IMO, it translates to the same thing - goodness begets goodness; evil begets evil.

But... that can't be true, can it? It is a fact that bad things do happen to good people. It's also a fact that good things do happen to bad people. So good doesn't always beget good, and evil doesn't always beget evil, regardless of what one may believe or want to believe.
Sam
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Nov 2 2005, 07:22 PM
Ah, Wack, there's no proof when it comes to such things. For Christians it's faith, for Hindus it's Karma. IMO, it translates to the same thing - goodness begets goodness; evil begets evil. Whether one has traditional or dogmatic faith or simply leads a life of morals and conviction, I personaly think they'll end up somewhere in the same sphere. I know that goes against Calvanistic, elitist, "chosen" convictions, but frankly, since I was five, coudn't swallow that notion, and deep inside, I know that Christ couldn't either. Bottom line - none us knows, so do what feel right. Have you ever read any C.S. Lewis?

"I know that goes against Calvanistic, elitist, "chosen" convictions, but frankly, since I was five, coudn't swallow that notion, and deep inside, I know that Christ couldn't either."

Okay, fair enough; your conviction.

"IMO, it translates to the same thing - goodness begets goodness; evil begets evil. "

Pardon me while I put on my neckbrace; I think I just got whiplash. That's an awfully Calvinistic comment to come from an avowed non-Calvinist. I'm right there with Cal on most points, but I don't buy into his philosophy that our earthly situation is the result of, or is illustrative of, whether we're living a "good" or "evil" life.

" Have you ever read any C.S. Lewis?"

Ah, a great mind. In fact, he wrote profoundly on the concept of a Christian defense of war. I almost recommended these to Wacki in the other thread; glad you like his writings, too.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
PJ, not so fast.

I came from a really bad family.
In my immediate family:
Prison terms
Murder
Suicide
Child abuse
Incest
Violence
Alcoholism
Torture
Drug abuse
Homelessness

At age 11 my dad forced me to watch him and my mom have sex because he suspected I was gay.

Shall I go on?

I was the youngest of four kids and saw all this.
When I turned 18 got away, I joined the Navy and never looked back.
Years of therapy helped a lot.

My point is: Any thinking person can look around and figure out crappy choices increases the chance of having a crappy life, good choices increases the chances of a good life.

You don't need God or even good parents.
You need to pay attention, and think.
It's not that hard.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Wacki Iraqi (numbering of paragraph added by Axtremus)
Nov 2 2005, 07:21 PM
[1] I have a friend who is a criminal and has been for 30 years, he's quite rich and has a great standard of living and has never even recieved a parking ticket.

[2] I also know a guy who got a lot of respect for being a psycho no one would ever mess with him so he has never been a victim.

[3] I also have a friend who is the nicest guy on earth, he worked for save the children, he's very poor, his wife drowned and he now has cancer.

What does this prove about right and wrong?

[1] Could be a modern day Robinhood who robs the rich and give to the poor and is deserving of all the good karma.

[2] Could be a very wise, very sharp, and very careful person simply wearing a mask of a psycho to throw every one off -- outwardly acts like a psycho but so extremely careful as to not piss off any one for real.

[3] Could have been secretly molesting all the children he purpotedly worked to "save" and is deserving of all the bad karma.

See? There's a feel-good explanation to everything.

:wink:
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tcmod
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Senior Carp
kenny
Nov 2 2005, 07:36 PM
PJ, not so fast.

I came from a really bad family.
In my immediate family:
Prison terms
Murder
Suicide
Child abuse
Incest
Violence
Alcoholism
Torture

At age 11 my dad forced me to watch him and my mom have sex because he suspected I was gay.

Shall I go on?

I was the youngest of four kids and saw all this.
When I turned 18 got away, I joined the Navy and never looked back.
Years of therapy helped a lot.

My point is: Any thinking person can look around and figure out crappy choices increases the chance of having a crappy life, good choices increases the chances of a good life.

You don't need God or even good parents.
You need to pay attention, and think.
It's not that hard.

You know kenny, this sounds like a conservative talking to a group of young poor black criminals. Seriously...I have heard this speech a thousand times.

Now the people that aren't able to rise above....is it because they are not a "thinking person"?
Dead girls don't say no, but you still have to buy them flowers
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
Sorry, Kenny. I didn't know.

But you're right. You don't need God to be a good person. You're living proof of that.

Morals come from within. But at some point, we are influenced, morally, by what goes on around us. In a sense, part of our notion of good vs. evil was influenced by the laws of the United States. It's illegal to murder - so whether you believe that God told us "Thou shalt not murder", or not, it's illegal in the United States - so you learn that it's wrong. Same with stealing. Same with slander.

So morals aren't entirely intrinsic. Even if you don't believe in God, quite likely a lot of your morals come from, say, the U.S. government telling you what's right and wrong. Maybe a lot of it comes from T.V. and radio. Some people get some of it from God. So we all have moral guidelines coming from elsewhere, whether we're religious or not.

But a lot of it is intrinsic, too, as you exemplify, Kenny. You had awful parents who taught you awful morals - but you still instrinsically try and figure out what is good and what is not.

So it's not so simple.
Sam
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dwain Lee
Nov 2 2005, 08:34 PM

"IMO, it translates to the same thing - goodness begets goodness; evil begets evil. "

Pardon me while I put on my neckbrace; I think I just got whiplash. That's an awfully Calvinistic comment to come from an avowed non-Calvinist. I'm right there with Cal on most points, but I don't buy into his philosophy that our earthly situation is the result of, or is illustrative of, whether we're living a "good" or "evil" life.

I don't think that is what Kathy is saying at all, and it is hardly a Calvinist position. In fact, it is not even a religious precept -- more just about human nature. People tend to be nice when we are nice, even if some one is rude to us a smile and a pleasant consideration can defuse the situation. Conversely, rudeness and malice bring out strong and even violent responses. You already know this, so I am not sure why you need the neckbrace. ;)

BUt I am glad to see that you don't buy into the prosperity gospel of "goodness" = "wealth".
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
tcmod
Nov 2 2005, 07:41 PM

You know kenny, this sounds like a conservative talking to a group of young poor black criminals.  Seriously...I have heard this speech a thousand times.

Now the people that aren't able to rise above....is it because they are not a "thinking person"?

I have no explanation for why I didn't also rot.
It is a mystery I don't bother with anymore.
The only explanation that I have is my mind.

Now if you want to convert what I said into rascism and insults, be my guest.
They are your associations, not mine.
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
Nov 2 2005, 11:57 PM
I have no explanation for why I didn't also rot.
It is a mystery.
The only explanation that I have is my mind.

Yes, that's the mystery of it all!

Some people are good people, and they can figure out on their own how to succeed, and they succeed.

Other people are also good people, and they figure out on their own how to succeed, but for some reason(s) (or maybe there aren't any reasons), they can't succeed.


It's wierd, how two people can have the same thoughts - and one succeeds while the other doesn't.

Maybe it has something to do with luck. One is lucky and the other is unlucky. But what is 'luck?' Everyone talks about it as if it controls everything (sometimes it does), but what is it exactly?

I'm not sure it's one of those things we can define, nor is it one of those things we can 'prove' in the scientific sense. But it's definately there, whatever it is...
Sam
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Perhaps there is luck.

But, the harder I work the luckier I get.
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
Some people work very hard, and they never get anywhere.

Some people don't lift a finger for anything, and they seem to be on top of the world.
Sam
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
pianojerome
Nov 2 2005, 08:05 PM
Some people work very hard, and they never get anywhere.

Some people don't lift a finger for anything, and they seem to be on top of the world.

Don't be confused by exceptions.
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
Nov 3 2005, 12:06 AM
pianojerome
Nov 2 2005, 08:05 PM
Some people work very hard, and they never get anywhere.

Some people don't lift a finger for anything, and they seem to be on top of the world.

Don't be confused by exceptions.

There are a lot of exceptions, aren't there?

It's not so simple.
Sam
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