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| Is America more divided today? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 2 2005, 08:28 AM (2,008 Views) | |
| Rick Zimmer | Nov 2 2005, 10:25 PM Post #176 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Saddam did -- with the full support and backing of the US. Including providing him with the chemical weapons he used against the Iranians.
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| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 3 2005, 12:34 AM Post #177 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Do some research. According to USAID 400,000 bodies have been found in mass graves. From Amnesty International, over 5000 Kurds were gassed in Halabja alone. Due to the gassing, many thousands more are permanently damaged and many children have since died of leukaemia and lymphoma. And yes, you are attempting to minimize the numbers. There might well be more despotic governments, but our obligation under the 1991 treaty was toward Iraq. It is a treaty that Hussein continued to flaunt and ignore all the wonderful years that Clinton was in office. In fact, throughout the Clinton presidency and up until the fighting got too intense for them, Dems were lining up to claim that they knew Hussein had WMD's: William J. Clinton : One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line. February 4, 1998 William J. Clinton : If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraqs weapons of mass destruction program. February 17, 1998 John Kerry: We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the US Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraqs refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs. Letter, October 9, 1998 Al Gore: We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country. September 23, 2002 Al Gore: Iraqs search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power. September 23, 2002 Ted Kennedy: We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction. September 27, 2002 John Kerry: I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force—-if necessary—-to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security. October 9, 2002 Hillary Clinton: In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. October 10, 2002 John Kerry: Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regimeHe presents grievaous threat because e is so consistently prone miscalculationAnd now he is miscalculating Americas response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons for weapons for massive districtSo the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, January 23, 2003 So knock off the h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e rhetoric. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ycul | Nov 3 2005, 01:51 AM Post #178 |
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Junior Carp
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And there you have it. Here is the reason for the rest of the world's sceptism towards America's "just war". Do you seriously believe your administration has the moral authority to start a war, based on their previous record of backing whoever would keep middle east oil flowing regardless of how many people were being gassed? You can cite as many figures as you like about what a bad guy Saddam is but the truth is your administration didn't give a monkey's how many people he was torturing or killing back in the early eighties during the Iran/Iraq conflict as long as America's economic interests were being protected. So don't expect us to start waving the stars and stripes when you have clearly contributed to the suffering of so many. |
| How now, brown cow. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 3 2005, 04:28 AM Post #179 |
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Senior Carp
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Ayyeeee!!
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| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 3 2005, 04:35 AM Post #180 |
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Senior Carp
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You still talking about that bloke *in prison* Larry.? Old news, who's next? Like has been said before, the danger at hand is now George W Bush, so lets make sure his statistics for death don't grow so that he can add foreign killings to his home record on the statistics front. Either that or we can expect less cowardice from him and see him move on Iran, Zimbabwe, China etc. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| JBryan | Nov 3 2005, 06:07 AM Post #181 |
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I am the grey one
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Actually, there is not one shred of evidence that we ever provided chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein. Small arms, some intelligence and logistics but that is all. That being said, our support of Saddam was based on the determination at the time that Saddam was much less dangerous to our national security than an Khomeini controlled Iraq. Much the same as our support of Stalin in kicking the Nazis out of his country. Support that turned on a dime once the war ended and the cold war began. Such are the wages of "realpolitik" and, as much as I would rather my country did not engage in it, it has not always been without its utility. That was then and this is now and to say that because we once supported this guy under the circumstance that existed then means we do not have the "moral authority" to deal with him now when he has become a much greater threat strikes me as rather silly. If what we did then was a mistake then correcting it now cannot be a bad thing. If what we did then was necessitated by the circumstances that existed at that time then dealing with him now when the circumstances are vastly different should present no moral contradiction. If anything the Bush Administration can be said to be less given to resorting to realpolitik than any previous administration and we should see that as an improvement. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Nov 3 2005, 06:18 AM Post #182 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Please tell that to the detainees in the black ops prisons, or to the American citizens held as enemy combatants. I take your point, JB, which is that the Bush Administration tends to have its moral compass firmly fixed, and it doesn't pander to evildoers as much as past Administrations may have done. However, instead, the Bush Administration does the evil itself, sometimes. That's realpolitik too. They just call it part of the war on terrorism. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| bachophile | Nov 3 2005, 06:19 AM Post #183 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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jb, while your specific comments about iraq are 100% true,however, the usa does have a history of putting economic interests ahead of principles, and i refer specifically to the support of despotic nut case regimes, like saudi arabia, which basically said, u can educate your people as u please and treat your woman as chattle, and we will look the other way as long as u keep our SUV's running. this ultimatly came back to bite us in the ass on sept 11, 2001. admittdly this was not necessarily a bush doctrine, but rather the on going thinking within all american administartions that the world is big enough, that what happens over there, stays over there, and america in the meantime has an advanced economy to feed. so now the world is tiny, saudi arabia is here, in ny, london and madrid. and so, we had better rethink everything, about who r friends and who r foes, and for what reasons. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| JBryan | Nov 3 2005, 06:27 AM Post #184 |
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I am the grey one
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I believe that our policy in Iraq and Afghanistan is in part a way of applying more pressure to Saudi Arabia. For instance, we no longer have military bases in their country and a stable functioning democracy on their border spells nothing but trouble for the house of Saud. However, for various reasons we have been forced to deal with them on more of a diplomatic footing but that does not diminish the realization that they are the enemy and their support for terrorism must be dealt with if we are at all serious about the war against terrorists. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| kenny | Nov 3 2005, 06:49 AM Post #185 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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9-11 is the best thing that ever happened to Bush. The new boggieman is TAAHRIZM! Now Bush has a blank check. |
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| The 89th Key | Nov 3 2005, 07:06 AM Post #186 |
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Haha...you're an idiot! :lol: |
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| The 89th Key | Nov 3 2005, 07:09 AM Post #187 |
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Good post back there IT, very interesting to see the democrat quotes! :lol: |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 3 2005, 07:12 AM Post #188 |
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Senior Carp
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 3 2005, 07:15 AM Post #189 |
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Senior Carp
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How??? I've never even worn mittens. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| The 89th Key | Nov 3 2005, 07:16 AM Post #190 |
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Don't feed the troll! |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 3 2005, 07:24 AM Post #191 |
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Senior Carp
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You stick to that 89th and we'll get along just fine.
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| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| JBryan | Nov 3 2005, 07:26 AM Post #192 |
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I am the grey one
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Care to provide some evidence? Or is you intellectual involvement limited to what one would expect from some hooligan at a soccer match. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| The 89th Key | Nov 3 2005, 07:32 AM Post #193 |
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The latter. |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 3 2005, 07:38 AM Post #194 |
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Senior Carp
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Are hooligans prone to fits of laughing JB? I just loved the "Small arms, some intelligence and logistics but that is all" quote. What in my posts has led you to believe that i would care to be violent to others JB? I don't think you've been paying attention in class Mr Ultraviolence.
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| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| JBryan | Nov 3 2005, 07:46 AM Post #195 |
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I am the grey one
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Kind of what I expected. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 3 2005, 07:50 AM Post #196 |
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Senior Carp
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Search and ye shall find JB.
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| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 3 2005, 08:24 AM Post #197 |
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Bull-Carp
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Perhaps, realpolitik in Afghanistan during the 1980's probably prevented a Soviet helicopter gunship crew from putting a .50 cal round between the eyes of a certain US equipped Saudi Mujahadeen fighter named Osama Bin Laden. Still, the doctrine of using an overwhelming power projection capability to push and sustain conflict as far away from US shores and borders is concombinant with Realpolitk as an intrument of foreign policy. The establishment of a forward military base in the heart of MIdddle East and desire to nurture a *friendly* regime in Iraq is very much in keeping with traditional realpolitik. |
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| JBryan | Nov 3 2005, 08:27 AM Post #198 |
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I am the grey one
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Fortunately, it does not incorporate the really nasty element of realpolitik as exemplified by our support of Saddam. The equivalent would be dragooning some tin-pot dictator into the war on terrorism. That would be Pakistan, not Iraq. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 3 2005, 08:36 AM Post #199 |
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Bull-Carp
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Well Uzbekistan led by Karimov and his band of not- so- merry post Brezhnev oligarchs, is not exactly the font of libertarianism in Central Asia. Nor is Turkmenistan's Nyazov with his quasi Stalin/Nasser cult of personality and secret police. |
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| JBryan | Nov 3 2005, 08:39 AM Post #200 |
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I am the grey one
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Both good examples and, perhaps, an illustration of the futility of trying to conduct a foreign policy cleansed of realpolitik. Of course, the Carter Administration should have been instructive in that respect as well. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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