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Is America more divided today?
Topic Started: Nov 2 2005, 08:28 AM (2,008 Views)
Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
John D'Oh
Nov 2 2005, 06:42 PM
How many died in the Iran-Iraq war?

Who started it? Not jolly Uncle Saddam, surely? He was too busy visiting all the sick children that were victims of Fascist Western agression :rolleyes2:

Saddam did -- with the full support and backing of the US. Including providing him with the chemical weapons he used against the Iranians.

Posted Image
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kathyk
Nov 2 2005, 07:34 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 2 2005, 05:29 PM
Nina
Nov 2 2005, 06:00 PM
If we believe that between 27,000-30,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed since the war began, and are now living in bombed out rubble with sporadic electricity, limited food, suicide bombings, etc., I think it's fair to say that their lives haven't been dramatically changed for the better.

I can only hope that the proper next sentence should read, "Not yet, but soon."

The longer we are there without significant improvement, the worse it will be for both the Iraqis and our long-term interests.  It seems as if the Rumsfeld Doctrine really didn't work, but I'm not sure that there's any real consideration given to alternatives.

that versus some 1.3 million killed by Hussein -- just the mass grave tally is in the 400K range.

Virtually evey family has a "story" of damage inflicted by Saddam -- such was his deliberate policy. Tongues cut out, eyes gouged, faced scarred specifically so that people would know that they were "enemies of the state" and not war wounds, gang rapes of family members for coercion or punishment, imprisonments, hundreds of thousands missing and killed...

A friend of mine was in charge of the restoration of Iraqi media immediately after the war. He has videos of Saddam's "home movies" -- showing the diamond merchants having their hands cut off and delivered in formaldehyde buckets to Saddam for verification, the rapes, the beatings on the feet and wrists so that the skin broke open and the bones splintered...

He makes these videos available to those who doubt the brutality of Hussein. After hearing him describe what he has seen, I told him I didn't think I had the stomach to watch it. If you want to, I'll ask him to send you a copy if you have any doubts as to why we are there, or whether the lot of the Iraqi people has improved.

Source please? The last credible article I wrote postulated 500,000 max. Gassings 3-4,000 max. Not to minimize these numbers - put pleeez - there are plenty other corrupt regimes in the world doing much worse - Sudan, N. Korea, I dare say - -probably China. Anyone want to join me in spelling Hypo c-r-i-t-e-s?

Do some research.

According to USAID 400,000 bodies have been found in mass graves.

From Amnesty International, over 5000 Kurds were gassed in Halabja alone. Due to the gassing, many thousands more are permanently damaged and many children have since died of leukaemia and lymphoma.

And yes, you are attempting to minimize the numbers. There might well be more despotic governments, but our obligation under the 1991 treaty was toward Iraq. It is a treaty that Hussein continued to flaunt and ignore all the wonderful years that Clinton was in office. In fact, throughout the Clinton presidency and up until the fighting got too intense for them, Dems were lining up to claim that they knew Hussein had WMD's:

William J. Clinton :

One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line. February 4, 1998

William J. Clinton :

If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraqs weapons of mass destruction program. February 17, 1998

John Kerry:

We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the US Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraqs refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs. Letter, October 9, 1998

Al Gore:

We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country. September 23, 2002

Al Gore:

Iraqs search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power. September 23, 2002

Ted Kennedy:

We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction. September 27, 2002

John Kerry:

I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force—-if necessary—-to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security. October 9, 2002

Hillary Clinton:

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. October 10, 2002

John Kerry:

Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regimeHe presents grievaous threat because e is so consistently prone miscalculationAnd now he is miscalculating Americas response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons for weapons for massive districtSo the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, January 23, 2003

So knock off the h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e rhetoric.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ycul
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Rick Zimmer
Nov 3 2005, 07:25 AM

Saddam did -- with the full support and backing of the US.  Including providing him with the chemical weapons he used against the Iranians.

Posted Image


And there you have it.

Here is the reason for the rest of the world's sceptism towards America's "just war". Do you seriously believe your administration has the moral authority to start a war, based on their previous record of backing whoever would keep middle east oil flowing regardless of how many people were being gassed? You can cite as many figures as you like about what a bad guy Saddam is but the truth is your administration didn't give a monkey's how many people he was torturing or killing back in the early eighties during the Iran/Iraq conflict as long as America's economic interests were being protected. So don't expect us to start waving the stars and stripes when you have clearly contributed to the suffering of so many.
How now, brown cow.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Jack Frost
Nov 2 2005, 06:35 PM
Given the resources at his disposal and his potential to cause harm, not to mention his propensity for wrongheaded decisions and hiring incompetent staff, there is nobody in the world more danerous than George W. Bush at this point in time.

I don't even consider that open to debate.

jf

Ayyeeee!! :wink:
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Larry
Nov 2 2005, 09:55 PM
I don't even consider that open to debate.

And that close minded opinion is part of the reason you don't have a solid grasp of what's happening around you.


Here are some statistics on how many people were killed or maimed for life by Saddam Hussein.

61,000 in the city of Bagdhad
500,000 to 1,000,000 estimated to be the number of dead buried in mass graves
180,000 in the scorched-earth campaign known as the "Anfal", against the Kurds
60,000 when Saddam violently suppressed rebellions by Shiite Muslims in the south and Kurds in the north at the close of the 1991 Gulf War
50,000 political prisoners
500,000 in Saddam's war with Iran
4,000,000 Kurds are permanently suffering as a result of his chemical attack against them
Random killings during a year from his rape rooms, torture chambers, live burnings, and ethnic-cleansing campaigns are estimated at around 20,000 per year, over a 35 year period, for another roughly 700,000 people.

All told, best estimates indicate Saddam killed roughly 2.5 million people, or roughly 10% of the population of Iraq. Add in the permanently maimed 4 million, you have somewhere between 6 and 7 million people who either died or were permanently damaged by Saddam.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-1...tent_288443.htm
http://wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_deathsu...ssein42503.html

You still talking about that bloke *in prison* Larry.? Old news, who's next? Like has been said before, the danger at hand is now George W Bush, so lets make sure his statistics for death don't grow so that he can add foreign killings to his home record on the statistics front. Either that or we can expect less cowardice from him and see him move on Iran, Zimbabwe, China etc.
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Rick Zimmer
Nov 3 2005, 01:25 AM
John D'Oh
Nov 2 2005, 06:42 PM
How many died in the Iran-Iraq war?

Who started it? Not jolly Uncle Saddam, surely? He was too busy visiting all the sick children that were victims of Fascist Western agression :rolleyes2:

Saddam did -- with the full support and backing of the US. Including providing him with the chemical weapons he used against the Iranians.

Posted Image

Actually, there is not one shred of evidence that we ever provided chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein. Small arms, some intelligence and logistics but that is all. That being said, our support of Saddam was based on the determination at the time that Saddam was much less dangerous to our national security than an Khomeini controlled Iraq. Much the same as our support of Stalin in kicking the Nazis out of his country. Support that turned on a dime once the war ended and the cold war began. Such are the wages of "realpolitik" and, as much as I would rather my country did not engage in it, it has not always been without its utility.

That was then and this is now and to say that because we once supported this guy under the circumstance that existed then means we do not have the "moral authority" to deal with him now when he has become a much greater threat strikes me as rather silly. If what we did then was a mistake then correcting it now cannot be a bad thing. If what we did then was necessitated by the circumstances that existed at that time then dealing with him now when the circumstances are vastly different should present no moral contradiction. If anything the Bush Administration can be said to be less given to resorting to realpolitik than any previous administration and we should see that as an improvement.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
If anything the Bush Administration can be said to be less given to resorting to realpolitik than any previous administration and we should see that as an improvement.


Please tell that to the detainees in the black ops prisons, or to the American citizens held as enemy combatants.

I take your point, JB, which is that the Bush Administration tends to have its moral compass firmly fixed, and it doesn't pander to evildoers as much as past Administrations may have done. However, instead, the Bush Administration does the evil itself, sometimes. That's realpolitik too. They just call it part of the war on terrorism.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
jb, while your specific comments about iraq are 100% true,however, the usa does have a history of putting economic interests ahead of principles,

and i refer specifically to the support of despotic nut case regimes, like saudi arabia, which basically said, u can educate your people as u please and treat your woman as chattle, and we will look the other way as long as u keep our SUV's running. this ultimatly came back to bite us in the ass on sept 11, 2001.

admittdly this was not necessarily a bush doctrine, but rather the on going thinking within all american administartions that the world is big enough, that what happens over there, stays over there, and america in the meantime has an advanced economy to feed.

so now the world is tiny, saudi arabia is here, in ny, london and madrid.

and so, we had better rethink everything, about who r friends and who r foes, and for what reasons.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I believe that our policy in Iraq and Afghanistan is in part a way of applying more pressure to Saudi Arabia. For instance, we no longer have military bases in their country and a stable functioning democracy on their border spells nothing but trouble for the house of Saud. However, for various reasons we have been forced to deal with them on more of a diplomatic footing but that does not diminish the realization that they are the enemy and their support for terrorism must be dealt with if we are at all serious about the war against terrorists.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
9-11 is the best thing that ever happened to Bush.

The new boggieman is TAAHRIZM!

Now Bush has a blank check.
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The 89th Key
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Wacki Iraqi
Nov 2 2005, 07:29 PM
John D'Oh
Nov 2 2005, 03:30 PM
Quote:
 
Do i disagree? No i agree with both your questions


You think the US is intentionally killing children? For what reason?

Collateral Damage, the price of freedom.

Haha...you're an idiot! :lol:
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The 89th Key
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Good post back there IT, very interesting to see the democrat quotes! :lol:
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
JBryan
Nov 3 2005, 06:07 AM
Rick Zimmer
Nov 3 2005, 01:25 AM
John D'Oh
Nov 2 2005, 06:42 PM
How many died in the Iran-Iraq war?

Who started it? Not jolly Uncle Saddam, surely? He was too busy visiting all the sick children that were victims of Fascist Western agression :rolleyes2:

Saddam did -- with the full support and backing of the US. Including providing him with the chemical weapons he used against the Iranians.

Posted Image

Actually, there is not one shred of evidence that we ever provided chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein. Small arms, some intelligence and logistics but that is all.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Wacki Iraqi
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The 89th Key
Nov 3 2005, 07:06 AM
Wacki Iraqi
Nov 2 2005, 07:29 PM
John D'Oh
Nov 2 2005, 03:30 PM
Quote:
 
Do i disagree? No i agree with both your questions


You think the US is intentionally killing children? For what reason?

Collateral Damage, the price of freedom.

Haha...you're an idiot! :lol:

How??? I've never even worn mittens.
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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The 89th Key
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Don't feed the troll!
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Wacki Iraqi
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The 89th Key
Nov 3 2005, 07:16 AM
Don't feed the troll!

You stick to that 89th and we'll get along just fine. :smile:
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Wacki Iraqi
Nov 3 2005, 10:12 AM
JBryan
Nov 3 2005, 06:07 AM
Rick Zimmer
Nov 3 2005, 01:25 AM
John D'Oh
Nov 2 2005, 06:42 PM
How many died in the Iran-Iraq war?

Who started it? Not jolly Uncle Saddam, surely? He was too busy visiting all the sick children that were victims of Fascist Western agression :rolleyes2:

Saddam did -- with the full support and backing of the US. Including providing him with the chemical weapons he used against the Iranians.

Posted Image

Actually, there is not one shred of evidence that we ever provided chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein. Small arms, some intelligence and logistics but that is all.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Care to provide some evidence? Or is you intellectual involvement limited to what one would expect from some hooligan at a soccer match.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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The 89th Key
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The latter.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
JBryan
Nov 3 2005, 07:26 AM
Wacki Iraqi
Nov 3 2005, 10:12 AM
JBryan
Nov 3 2005, 06:07 AM
Rick Zimmer
Nov 3 2005, 01:25 AM
John D'Oh
Nov 2 2005, 06:42 PM
How many died in the Iran-Iraq war?

Who started it? Not jolly Uncle Saddam, surely? He was too busy visiting all the sick children that were victims of Fascist Western agression :rolleyes2:

Saddam did -- with the full support and backing of the US. Including providing him with the chemical weapons he used against the Iranians.

Posted Image

Actually, there is not one shred of evidence that we ever provided chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein. Small arms, some intelligence and logistics but that is all.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Care to provide some evidence? Or is you intellectual involvement limited to what one would expect from some hooligan at a soccer match.

Are hooligans prone to fits of laughing JB? I just loved the "Small arms, some intelligence and logistics but that is all" quote.
What in my posts has led you to believe that i would care to be violent to others JB? I don't think you've been paying attention in class Mr Ultraviolence.
:wink:
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Kind of what I expected.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
JBryan
Nov 3 2005, 07:46 AM
Kind of what I expected.

Search and ye shall find JB. :wink:
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
JBryan
Nov 3 2005, 06:07 AM
If anything the Bush Administration can be said to be less given to resorting to realpolitik than any previous administration and we should see that as an improvement.

Perhaps, realpolitik in Afghanistan during the 1980's probably prevented a Soviet helicopter gunship crew from putting a .50 cal round between the eyes of a certain US equipped Saudi Mujahadeen fighter named Osama Bin Laden.

Still, the doctrine of using an overwhelming power projection capability to push and sustain conflict as far away from US shores and borders is concombinant with Realpolitk as an intrument of foreign policy. The establishment of a forward military base in the heart of MIdddle East and desire to nurture a *friendly* regime in Iraq is very much in keeping with traditional realpolitik.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Fortunately, it does not incorporate the really nasty element of realpolitik as exemplified by our support of Saddam. The equivalent would be dragooning some tin-pot dictator into the war on terrorism. That would be Pakistan, not Iraq.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Well Uzbekistan led by Karimov and his band of not- so- merry post Brezhnev oligarchs, is not exactly the font of libertarianism in Central Asia. Nor is Turkmenistan's Nyazov with his quasi Stalin/Nasser cult of personality and secret police.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Both good examples and, perhaps, an illustration of the futility of trying to conduct a foreign policy cleansed of realpolitik. Of course, the Carter Administration should have been instructive in that respect as well.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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