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| Is America more divided today? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 2 2005, 08:28 AM (2,010 Views) | |
| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 03:28 PM Post #151 |
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Senior Carp
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Do either matter? Someone must believe this to be true though, otherwise they'd all be hanging flowers on the soldiers jock straps instead of committing suicide as close to them as possible. Does it matter what i or you think? Somebody must believe that it isn't otherwise they would not be screaming death to America quite so loudly. So really the same goes for those who believe that this war is right.............someone disagrees and they're willing to kill also. Good luck. Do i disagree? No i agree with both your questions. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| John D'Oh | Nov 2 2005, 03:30 PM Post #152 |
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MAMIL
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You think the US is intentionally killing children? For what reason? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 04:29 PM Post #153 |
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Senior Carp
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Collateral Damage, the price of freedom. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 2 2005, 04:33 PM Post #154 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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the key word is intentional. Collateral damage is not intentional. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 04:39 PM Post #155 |
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Senior Carp
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It is when you bomb a bunch of apartments because you believe there may be insurgents present. Or did the US forces believe they could fight terrorism without killing a single innocent person?
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| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 2 2005, 04:43 PM Post #156 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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acceptable loss is not the same as intentional loss, an important difference except to those who get killed.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 04:50 PM Post #157 |
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Senior Carp
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Of course, silly me. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 04:53 PM Post #158 |
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Senior Carp
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I can just see the next Ed Gein trying that defence in court. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| Nina | Nov 2 2005, 05:00 PM Post #159 |
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Senior Carp
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If we believe that between 27,000-30,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed since the war began, and are now living in bombed out rubble with sporadic electricity, limited food, suicide bombings, etc., I think it's fair to say that their lives haven't been dramatically changed for the better. I can only hope that the proper next sentence should read, "Not yet, but soon." The longer we are there without significant improvement, the worse it will be for both the Iraqis and our long-term interests. It seems as if the Rumsfeld Doctrine really didn't work, but I'm not sure that there's any real consideration given to alternatives. |
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| John D'Oh | Nov 2 2005, 05:25 PM Post #160 |
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MAMIL
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Collateral damage isn't the same as intentional. However, the pain caused to those people on the ground is just as great if they lose a loved one, or a limb. The problem with saying it's the same as intentional killing is a) It's not true b) You alienate people who don't believe that the war was justified by making unjustified statements. I don't know for sure all the reasons that Bush and Co, had for going into Iraq, and neither does anybody else who's posting here, whatever they may say, unless someone is actually Dick Cheney's sock puppet. I don't believe that it was solely because they were concerned with freeing the Iraqi people, although I'm sure that, at least for some of the administration, Saddam's barbarity was a motivating factor. I also don't believe that it was solely because they believed there were WMD's in imminent danger of being used, as I think their intelligent services are better than that, although the horrible consequences of being wrong may have pushed them in. I'm sure that one of the reasons was to try and introduce a stabilising influence into the area, and possibly also to cement ties with the Saudis, since they aren't exactly Saddams biggest fans. A conspiracy theorist could claim that it was a way of creating a point of attraction to the terrorists, so that they'd be more likely to do their killing in Iraq than elsewhere. I'm not sure that I can believe that. Don't mind me, I'm just thinking aloud, and blathering on as per usual. I do however believe that a healthy dose of cynicism is necessary when looking at the reasons behind foreign policy. I'm not sure that many of us would think the war was worthwhile if we had to spend a couple of months living with a bereaved, or bombed, Iraqi family. However, this statement could also have been made in 1970s Vietnam, 1900's South Africa, or 15th Century Bordeaux. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 2 2005, 05:29 PM Post #161 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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that versus some 1.3 million killed by Hussein -- just the mass grave tally is in the 400K range. Virtually evey family has a "story" of damage inflicted by Saddam -- such was his deliberate policy. Tongues cut out, eyes gouged, faced scarred specifically so that people would know that they were "enemies of the state" and not war wounds, gang rapes of family members for coercion or punishment, imprisonments, hundreds of thousands missing and killed... A friend of mine was in charge of the restoration of Iraqi media immediately after the war. He has videos of Saddam's "home movies" -- showing the diamond merchants having their hands cut off and delivered in formaldehyde buckets to Saddam for verification, the rapes, the beatings on the feet and wrists so that the skin broke open and the bones splintered... He makes these videos available to those who doubt the brutality of Hussein. After hearing him describe what he has seen, I told him I didn't think I had the stomach to watch it. If you want to, I'll ask him to send you a copy if you have any doubts as to why we are there, or whether the lot of the Iraqi people has improved. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 05:30 PM Post #162 |
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Senior Carp
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Saddam himself only managed to kill 5,000 Iraqis in one sitting and most of them are contested to be Iranians? So well done USA, maybe one day you'll reach the British benchmark. The best we can hope for now Nina is that Bush destroys the evidence of this war by massacring the opposition, burying the evidence and buying off the witnesses. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| John D'Oh | Nov 2 2005, 05:33 PM Post #163 |
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MAMIL
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How many people other than Iraqis did Saddam kill? How many died in the Iran-Iraq war? How many Kurds? How many Kuwaitis? Don't try to claim that the Bush administration is the same or worse than Saddam, that's ridiculous. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 05:41 PM Post #164 |
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Senior Carp
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OK I.T you mail me the tapes and popcorn so i can watch some torture videos and agree with everything that you say henceforth :rolleyes: P.M me for that all important address now won't you? :rolleyes: It's not that i don't believe you I.T :rolleyes: "He makes these videos available to those who doubt the brutality of Hussein." Corking really corking BS. :lol: |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| John D'Oh | Nov 2 2005, 05:42 PM Post #165 |
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MAMIL
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How many died in the Iran-Iraq war? Who started it? Not jolly Uncle Saddam, surely? He was too busy visiting all the sick children that were victims of Fascist Western agression
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| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 05:47 PM Post #166 |
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Senior Carp
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Saddam Hussein is a lunatic dictator cultured in a tyrranical state by a fanatical culture. What's Bush's excuse? If he's not the moron the right protest he isn't, what is he? A Christian, in a democracy, in the FREE WORLD??? You tell me who's worse.
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| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 2 2005, 05:48 PM Post #167 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Remain in your naïveté, Wacki. It doesn't matter to me. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 05:52 PM Post #168 |
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Senior Carp
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Oh and the 5,000 i was referring to was a single incident with the Kurds as an example of a lot of people killed, if anyone has any higher numbers, be my guest and add them to the ever growing list of murder in the name of anything. ( oh,and i thought i edited that post to "in one sitting"????) |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 05:55 PM Post #169 |
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Senior Carp
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Oh, i'm sorry I.T, it's my fault??
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| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 2 2005, 05:57 PM Post #170 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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depends on whether its vincible or invincible ignorance. you're not make a good case for the former. :lol: |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| John D'Oh | Nov 2 2005, 05:58 PM Post #171 |
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MAMIL
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I don't much like Bush. Hussein is worse, much much worse. Actually, he's not a dictator any more, he's the accused. I believe the problem with the arguments you are espousing is that they undermine a credible opposition to Bush's foreign policies. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Nov 2 2005, 06:29 PM Post #172 |
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Senior Carp
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And that's why Bush is much worse. I rest my case your honour.
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| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| kathyk | Nov 2 2005, 06:34 PM Post #173 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Source please? The last credible article I wrote postulated 500,000 max. Gassings 3-4,000 max. Not to minimize these numbers - put pleeez - there are plenty other corrupt regimes in the world doing much worse - Sudan, N. Korea, I dare say - -probably China. Anyone want to join me in spelling Hypo c-r-i-t-e-s? |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| Jack Frost | Nov 2 2005, 06:35 PM Post #174 |
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Bull-Carp
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Given the resources at his disposal and his potential to cause harm, not to mention his propensity for wrongheaded decisions and hiring incompetent staff, there is nobody in the world more danerous than George W. Bush at this point in time. I don't even consider that open to debate. jf |
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| Larry | Nov 2 2005, 09:55 PM Post #175 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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I don't even consider that open to debate. And that close minded opinion is part of the reason you don't have a solid grasp of what's happening around you. Here are some statistics on how many people were killed or maimed for life by Saddam Hussein. 61,000 in the city of Bagdhad 500,000 to 1,000,000 estimated to be the number of dead buried in mass graves 180,000 in the scorched-earth campaign known as the "Anfal", against the Kurds 60,000 when Saddam violently suppressed rebellions by Shiite Muslims in the south and Kurds in the north at the close of the 1991 Gulf War 50,000 political prisoners 500,000 in Saddam's war with Iran 4,000,000 Kurds are permanently suffering as a result of his chemical attack against them Random killings during a year from his rape rooms, torture chambers, live burnings, and ethnic-cleansing campaigns are estimated at around 20,000 per year, over a 35 year period, for another roughly 700,000 people. All told, best estimates indicate Saddam killed roughly 2.5 million people, or roughly 10% of the population of Iraq. Add in the permanently maimed 4 million, you have somewhere between 6 and 7 million people who either died or were permanently damaged by Saddam. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-1...tent_288443.htm http://wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_deathsu...ssein42503.html |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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Or did the US forces believe they could fight terrorism without killing a single innocent person?


6:34 AM Jul 11