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Is America more divided today?
Topic Started: Nov 2 2005, 08:28 AM (2,015 Views)
kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Nov 2 2005, 10:58 AM


I am not about to vote so as to placate any other nation

I am.

I am more pro-world than pro-American.
"More for us, less for everyone else!" can't go on forever.
It's not fair.

Those not smart enough to be born in America resent our disproportionate wealth.
Flying planes into our buildings is only the beginning.

One world.
One people.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Not going to have that for a long time, Kenny.

At least, not while a good lump of us still kill our dinner and cook it over a fire not started by Kingsford.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Hmmmm, like i said Larry, people are planets apart on this issue alone (re your response).
Are you paying the price for the freedom you speak of Larry? (hmmmmm again)


The standard reply when a pacifist is having the flaws in his logic exposed on this issue is to ask "are you paying the price yourself?", meaning "are you out there fighting in the war yourself?"

To answer you directly, no I'm not over there fighting. I'm too old to go. But if they would take me, I'd go sign up tomorrow. Am I doing my part? Yes - by supporting the troops who *are* over there fighting for freedom and security. By taking a stand against the kind of logic you have expressed. By raising money. By helping the families of the soldiers from my home town when they need it.

The attitude towards this war is the very thing i am using to define the belief of our increasing polarization in the west (from our neighbours across the world and each other). It's exactly your casual acceptance of the "necessary" killings, if not your outright support of the killing (you don't have to pick a side, they're both the same in the disregard for each other) that quantifies my point exactly Larry.

That is completely asinine. You made 3 claims that wouldn't pass even a hint of a logic test. You say "killing in the name of Christianity". That's beyond ridiculous. Just yesterday it was reported that 3 young girls were beheaded in Indonesia as they walked to their Christian school - by Muslims. The list of cases of Muslims killing Christians could go on for pages - yet you can't show a single example of Christians killing Muslims, particularly in "the name of Christianity". Yes, as long as people think like you do, there will be a divide. Your beliefs on the subject show absolutely no logic.

America could be seen as a threat to the rest of the world (it doesn't matter whether it is a correct belief.........just that it is *a* belief) by your own defining views, you are a target to be destroyed.
Good luck with that one Larry.


What America is seen as is directly connected to the amount of idiotic perversion of the truth that comes from the kind of logic that would twist a nation's attempt to stop terrorists from killing innocent people into them being the ones to blame for the killings.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Those not smart enough to be born in America resent our disproportionate wealth.

That's scary logic, Kenny. Dangerous and scary.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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JBryan
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I am the grey one
John D'Oh
Nov 2 2005, 02:07 PM
Quote:
 
I am not about to vote so as to placate any other nation, or more precisely the reflexively anti-American sentiments of the left in any other nation.


No, of course you shouldn't. However, it is worth considering whether a candidate is experienced in diplomacy when dealing with other nations. It's part of the necessary skill set, and I don't happen to think it's one of Bush's strong points. This isn't a left/right thing - I seem to think that Reagan was rather good at it.

I think Bush could bend over and kiss them on their collective ass and they would complain that his lips were chapped.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
JBryan
Nov 2 2005, 11:06 AM
I would be frightened of the sort of government they are creating as the EU. I certainly will lose no sleep if our President engenders their displeasure.

American foriegn policy?
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Quote:
 
I would be frightened of the sort of government they are creating as the EU. I certainly will lose no sleep if our President engenders their displeasure.


The EU is a fact of life, and it's influence is likely to increase. You don't need to agree with it, but you do need to work with it.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Yes, but not succumb to it which is exactly what engenders their displeasure.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
JBryan
Nov 2 2005, 12:15 PM
John D'Oh
Nov 2 2005, 02:07 PM
Quote:
 
I am not about to vote so as to placate any other nation, or more precisely the reflexively anti-American sentiments of the left in any other nation.


No, of course you shouldn't. However, it is worth considering whether a candidate is experienced in diplomacy when dealing with other nations. It's part of the necessary skill set, and I don't happen to think it's one of Bush's strong points. This isn't a left/right thing - I seem to think that Reagan was rather good at it.

I think Bush could bend over and kiss them on their collective ass and they would complain that his lips were chapped.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Quote:
 
I think Bush could bend over and kiss them on their collective ass and they would complain that his lips were chapped.


:lol:

There's some truth to that! I find that when speaking to other non-Americans, the more hatred one fosters for our president, the less knowledgeable they are about his policies.

I mean, c’mon. He’s not my idol either, but don’t knock the guy just because it’s the thing to say. Why don’tcha start to branch out with your news sources, and stop taking the BBC to be the political Bible?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Quote:
 
I think Bush could bend over and kiss them on their collective ass and they would complain that his lips were chapped.


I think maybe you need to step back and realise that Mr. Bush does have faults. He doesn't do diplomacy very well. You can blame the filthy foreigners all you like, but it just makes your diplomacy look worse. The world is not a cowboy movie.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I would be the first to admit that Bush has faults. I tend to think his foreign policy to be more right than wrong, however.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
Larry
Nov 2 2005, 11:13 AM


Yes, as long as people think like you do, there will be a divide.

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii thang you!
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kenny
Nov 2 2005, 12:10 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 2 2005, 10:58 AM


I am not about to vote so as to placate any other nation

I am.

I am more pro-world than pro-American.
"More for us, less for everyone else!" can't go on forever.
It's not fair.

Those not smart enough to be born in America resent our disproportionate wealth.
Flying planes into our buildings is only the beginning.

One world.
One people.

Kenny:

Go spend some time in even one of the more developed Third World countries, like India, let alone places like PRC. I don't think you really want the Africans or Moslems or Communists or mobocrats creating public policy regarding your lifestyle.

You have it so frigging good you would be foolish to not wave that US flag.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Quote:
 
I mean, c’mon. He’s not my idol either, but don’t knock the guy just because it’s the thing to say. Why don’tcha start to branch out with your news sources, and stop taking the BBC to be the political Bible?


Who would you suggest I listen to, Fox? Al Jazeera? Ann Coulter? No thanks, the Beeb may have it's faults, but it's a darn site better than Murdoch.

And actually, you may not have noticed, but the UK is one of the few countries who is actually supporting the US at the moment.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!







Quote:
 
Who would you suggest I listen to, Fox? Al Jazeera? Ann Coulter? No thanks, the Beeb may have it's faults, but she's a darn site better than Murdoch.


Well, you don't have to be nearly that extreme. The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, CNN, and the Washington Post are all good for starters.

Quote:
 
And actually, you may not have noticed, but the UK is one of the few countries who is actually supporting the US at the moment.


Oh, I've definitely noticed! My comment wasn't exclusive to the UK.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Nov 2 2005, 11:22 AM


You have it so frigging good you would be foolish to not wave that US flag.

You just unwittingly made a point for me.

For me to have it THIS good others have to suffer.
Not fair.

Isn't selfishness a sin?


BTW I lived overseas for 5 years, 1.5 of which was in the Philippines.
I know how good I have it, and R.P. is not even one of the poorest nations.
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JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
Quote:
 
For me to have it THIS good others have to suffer.
Not fair.


That is simply untrue. Affluence and poverty is not zero sum. One tends to be correlated more with freedom and liberty while the other is more often associated with despotism.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
kenny
Nov 2 2005, 11:30 AM
ivorythumper
Nov 2 2005, 11:22 AM





For me to have it THIS good others have to suffer.
Not fair.

Isn't selfishness a sin?


BTW I lived overseas for 5 years, 1.5 of which was in the Philippines.
I know how good I have it, and R.P. is not even one of the poorest nations.

Only if you're Muslim or a Liberal.
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kenny
Nov 2 2005, 12:30 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 2 2005, 11:22 AM


You have it so frigging good you would be foolish to not wave that US flag.

You just unwittingly made a point for me.

For me to have it THIS good others have to suffer.
Not fair.

Isn't selfishness a sin?


BTW I lived overseas for 5 years, 1.5 of which was in the Philippines.
I know how good I have it, and R.P. is not even one of the poorest nations.

Kenny:

Fair enough, and forgive that I forgot that you experienced a long time in the Phillipines.

I am grateful to live in the US, and the idea of "world peace" and "one world" -- while noble ideals, are not worth sacrificing the very real goods we have in the US.

My concern is that the goods we have here WOULD be lost. Centralization invariably limits human freedoms and is contrary to the order of society.

You need not feel guilty about the abundance that you have as an American. You might well decide to help others in less fortunate circumstances through UNICEF, Esperanza, or any number of charities. But the economic and political reality is that dismantling the freedoms and economic success of the West will not help the poorer countries -- if anything we should use our advantages to help them, not flitter these advantages away in pursuit of some globalist socialist dream.


The dogma lives loudly within me.
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The 89th Key
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Aqua Letifer
Nov 2 2005, 02:19 PM
I mean, c’mon. He’s not my idol either, but don’t knock the guy just because it’s the thing to say. Why don’tcha start to branch out with your news sources, and stop taking the BBC to be the political Bible?

When I was in Rome, I met this Irish girl...and of course, we eventually talked politics. She couldn't BELIEVE I voted for Bush. She thought he was an idiot, etc. I asked why she thought that and she literally said, "Well, I've seen Michael Moore's movie and..." :doh:

...I still slept with her though. It was jolly good. ;)
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The 89th Key
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JBryan
Nov 2 2005, 02:21 PM
I would be the first to admit that Bush has faults. I tend to think his foreign policy to be more right than wrong, however.

Exactly.

He also needs to work on his boder policy and settle down with his economic liberality. That's not a word though...
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The 89th Key
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Aqua Letifer
Nov 2 2005, 02:25 PM
Quote:
 
Who would you suggest I listen to, Fox? Al Jazeera? Ann Coulter? No thanks, the Beeb may have it's faults, but she's a darn site better than Murdoch.


Well, you don't have to be nearly that extreme. The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, CNN, and the Washington Post are all good for starters.

New York Times?

NEW YORK TIMES?!

[size=7]NEW YORK TIMES[/size]

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

The Wall Street Journal is great, I'll give you that, but the NYT is the flagship of the liberal media.

Fox slants right, sure...but not nearly as bad as CBS, ABC, MSNBC, CNN, and NBC lean to the left.

I kid you not, quite a few polls came out and they all said the same thing. Fox News slants to the right by 2% on average, and the other outlets slant to the left on average by 15-20%.

Although...I like Lou Dobbs. I have no idea what side he is on politically, but he's a good show to watch around 6pm, on CNN.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
You could use less gas so there is more for developing countries.

You could vote for,say, a candidate that isn't opposed to the Kyoto Accord becuase it will hurt the American economy.
So the American economy is more important than the planet's health?

You can make a difference in the world.
It is an attitude thing.
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The 89th Key
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kenny
Nov 2 2005, 02:30 PM
For me to have it THIS good others have to suffer.

What kind of logic is that?
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