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Is America more divided today?
Topic Started: Nov 2 2005, 08:28 AM (2,007 Views)
kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Maybe it is just that I pay attention more than I did years ago.
It seems to me that the country is more divided these days.

Left vs. right.
Republican vs. democrat.
Liberal vs. conservative.
Rich vs. poor.
Tradition vs. progress.

Is this increase in tension real?
Or is it mostly fabricated by the media in their ever-increasing high-stakes competition for our attention (advertising dollars)?
Afterall, no conflict no story.
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The 89th Key
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Kenny, I'm biased. I voted in the presidential election of 2000 and 2004.

Before then, I couldn't really have cared less...so it seems more split now, but that's just because I'm paying more attention. I think much of it has to do with the media, as well.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Maybe the media is dividing us with their fabrication.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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apple
one of the angels
absolutely - media representation of partisan interests have destroyed what unity we have enjoyed as Americans.... very bad thing.. what makes me mad is that it is our diversity that is exploited to drive us apart.. each of the political camps feel they have a monopoly goodness, morality and love of our country.. what are really minor differences have been painted as ideological monstrosities of selfishness.

It's hard to have pride in one's country when all you hear is how bad it is.
it behooves me to behold
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Well, if you look at the Socio-economic Status rankings of each American, the gap is definitely widening.

I think Kenny is correct in his assumptions.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Hard to say - I was obliviously young in the 60's.

I would say politics is definitely more polarized.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
apple
Nov 2 2005, 08:33 AM
what are really minor differences have been painted as ideological monstrosities of selfishness.

Minor! did you say MINOR differences????
That seems particulary naive Apple. I'm sorry but there are massive differences of opinion about how the so called "free world" operates in these times. Just pick a single issue like war and you've got an enormous chasm opening up to separate both opposing and supporting sides. The will and act of killing others around the world in the name of Christianity, democracy, or "freedom" devides us as human beings about as much as is possible. I consider murdering another person for any reason other than the un-premeditated act of self defense ( so that doesn't mean defending yourself and killing someone because you believe that *one day* they may have the capacity to cause a threat) as far away from my concept of humanity as possible.
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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apple
one of the angels
see? there are those who know from hindsight it is wise to act proactively.. They are those who might be for the war.. are they your opposite?

I imagine you've read quite a bit of stuff I haven't ... are we disalike in our abhorence of unnecessary killing?

i don't think so..

might point being, that the differences are presented as truth... and there are two sides to every issue at least.
it behooves me to behold
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
I have to agree with Wacki that the differences are far from minor.

Gay rights? Abortion? I wouldn't consider these things minor.

I've always been a moderate conservative. But, I feel I'm being polarized to the left more and more. Is it the media? Probably not as I usually watch Fox and can't stomach MSNBC and CNN.

I think both sides of the aisle are more extreme than they used to be.

JMO.
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Well just to see how "divided" we are, I propose the following experiment:

Go out and find yourself a total stranger who disagrees with you about one of the following topics:

Abortion
Gay Rights
Capital Punishment
The War in Iraq

Begin an objective debate with them, and use a timer to see how long it takes until you both resort to petty personal attacks and screaming matches.

I would contest to say we're pretty darn divided.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
The will and act of killing others around the world in the name of Christianity, democracy, or "freedom" devides us as human beings about as much as is possible.

That's because there are naive people out there who think what you just said is intelligent.

Since you obviously don't have access to the news, I'll bring you up to date... no one is killing others around the world in the name of Christianity, they are killing others around the world in the name of Islam. No one is killing others around the world in the name of democracy, they are killing others around the world in the name of Islamic rule. No one is killing others around the world in the name of freedom, they are killing others around the world in the name of oppression. Thankfully there are people with enough sense to understand that they present a threat to freedom and safety, and are attempting to put a stop to it. It's unfortunate that as a result some of them will die, but that is the price paid for freedom. Your simple minded logic carried to its conclusion would result in far, far worse circumstances for the world, and thousands upon thousands more deaths.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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Begin an objective debate with them, and use a timer to see how long it takes until you both resort to petty personal attacks and screaming matches.


I think this is true more on-line than off. I have a number of friends with very different views on these issues, and I get along fine with them, because I like them as people. In person, people are much less likely to get into screaming matches and use personal abuse, just because of the nature of the internet.

[Edit - I missed out the 'not' - D'Oh!] This doesn't mean that the divisions are not widening. However, who we are doesn't have to be defined by our politics.

That being said 'Who asked you for your opinion, you moron?' :P
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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The 89th Key
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Good posts Larry and Apple.

Can you imagine the sh!tstorm Bush would have to go through if he let Saddam continue in his insane-mass-murderer-deying-the-United Nations-and-anti-democracy/USA ways? He would surely bomb, or economically support the bombing of us, the UK, or other civilized countries in the world. No one at all WANTS to have war, but sometimes it is necessary. It's not necessary with North Korea, hence Bush's talk-strategy WORKING. But with Iraq, Afgahnistan, and other terrorist-supporting countries, talks haven't worked and I'm glad he had the balls to take action before something serious happened. We've lost 2,000 soldiers in the process, and even more civilians...but that's barely a spec on the map for the enormous effort and result that we see. A free iraq and afghanistan where women are running for office and voting? They even have boy scouts for crying out loud!
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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He would surely bomb, or economically support the bombing of us, the UK, or other civilized countries in the world.


No, not 'surely', although the point is arguable. Saddam had a very bad history of attacking his neighbours, which may justify his removal, but there is no firm evidence that he was planning to attack the West directly, or even that he could have obtained the resources to do so.

Without doubt Saddam was a particularly unpleasant tyrant, and the world is a better place without him. The effectiveness of the US and allied tactics in removing him is not yet clear. Please don't trumpet the current situation as a triumph for democracy, as the battle isn't over yet, and there is still more than one possible outcome. As has been pointed out elsewhere, this part of the world has been a quagmire for an awful long time, and I think it would be extremely naive to assume the current action is going to solve the problems when so many have failed.

Afghanistan is a different situation. I believe the US was not only justified, it was obligated to go in, since the direct link to 9-11 was so clear.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Nina
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I'm not sure that we're more divided today... than what?

Things were pretty dicey during the Civil War and the Vietnam War, seems to me. The run-up to the World Wars wasn't exactly great, nor was McCarthyism. But I'd agree that we are going through a polarizing period, and unfortunately our leaders and the media seem to be whipping up the divisive frenzy rather than trying to inject some rationality and common sense into things.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Larry
Nov 2 2005, 10:03 AM
The will and act of killing others around the world in the name of Christianity, democracy, or "freedom" devides us as human beings about as much as is possible.

That's because there are naive people out there who think what you just said is intelligent.

Since you obviously don't have access to the news, I'll bring you up to date... no one is killing others around the world in the name of Christianity, they are killing others around the world in the name of Islam. No one is killing others around the world in the name of democracy, they are killing others around the world in the name of Islamic rule. No one is killing others around the world in the name of freedom, they are killing others around the world in the name of oppression. Thankfully there are people with enough sense to understand that they present a threat to freedom and safety, and are attempting to put a stop to it. It's unfortunate that as a result some of them will die, but that is the price paid for freedom. Your simple minded logic carried to its conclusion would result in far, far worse circumstances for the world, and thousands upon thousands more deaths.

Hmmmm, like i said Larry, people are planets apart on this issue alone (re your response).
Are you paying the price for the freedom you speak of Larry? (hmmmmm again)
The attitude towards this war is the very thing i am using to define the belief of our increasing polarization in the west (from our neighbours across the world and each other). It's exactly your casual acceptance of the "necessary" killings, if not your outright support of the killing (you don't have to pick a side, they're both the same in the disregard for each other) that quantifies my point exactly Larry.
America could be seen as a threat to the rest of the world (it doesn't matter whether it is a correct belief.........just that it is *a* belief) by your own defining views, you are a target to be destroyed.
Good luck with that one Larry.
:wink: :wink:
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Nina
Nov 2 2005, 10:40 AM
I'm not sure that we're more divided today... than what?

Things were pretty dicey during the Civil War and the Vietnam War, seems to me. The run-up to the World Wars wasn't exactly great, nor was McCarthyism. But I'd agree that we are going through a polarizing period, and unfortunately our leaders and the media seem to be whipping up the divisive frenzy rather than trying to inject some rationality and common sense into things.

I'd agree Nina, it's the same old same old. I'ts just that disagreements these days are only a smart bomb away from a resolution.
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
It's not just America, then, but the world that is becoming more divided? It would seem that the level of anti-American feeling abroad is higher now than it used to be, and I'm not just talking about Palestinian suicide bombers, but also in the EU, for example. Dismissing these countries as irrelevent or unimportant would be a mistake, in my opinion.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Well, not to make this a political statement, but Bush isn't exactly "Mr. Foreign Affairs". All I mean by that is, other national leaders have commented on their dissatisfaction with our choice for president in the last election.

I think, however, that most of Europe has come around to the fact that America does not equal George Bush. If for whatever reason they have a beef with our leader, they shouldn't hold grudges against the rest of us.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Nina
Nov 2 2005, 11:40 AM
I'm not sure that we're more divided today... than what?

Things were pretty dicey during the Civil War and the Vietnam War, seems to me. The run-up to the World Wars wasn't exactly great, nor was McCarthyism. But I'd agree that we are going through a polarizing period, and unfortunately our leaders and the media seem to be whipping up the divisive frenzy rather than trying to inject some rationality and common sense into things.

I have to agree with you Nina, the historical divisions in the first 90 years of America -- for instance the Tories (loyalists) v. the Revolutionaries was a horrifically bloody division, as was as you point out the War Between the States.

Things are relatively calm today. No blood in the streets. Let's keep it that way.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Aqua Letifer
Nov 2 2005, 11:55 AM
All I mean by that is, other national leaders have commented on their dissatisfaction with our choice for president in the last election.

Did they really??? And your point is....???

I am not about to vote so as to placate any other nation, or more precisely the reflexively anti-American sentiments of the left in any other nation.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Well, regarding John's post, he pointed out that the EU doesn't think much of America right now, either. I simply stated I think it's because they have a beef with our president.

I don't care what they think either, but it could probably do much to explain why we're often times at odds with them in the UN.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Quote:
 
think, however, that most of Europe has come around to the fact that America does not equal George Bush. If for whatever reason they have a beef with our leader, they shouldn't hold grudges against the rest of us.


Yes, my term was misleading. By anti-American, I meant a real dislike for the current administration, not for the people as a whole. I think this mistake is often made, and it can lead to people taking things more personally than they are meant. This happens both ways - the 'Freedom Fries' episode showed a real genius for upsetting foreigners.

Oh, also we DO hate those very loud people from Pennsylvania who wear check jackets and sit in English pubs shouting 'Eugene, ain't this quaint?' :P
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I would be frightened of the sort of government they are creating as the EU. I certainly will lose no sleep if our President engenders their displeasure.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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I am not about to vote so as to placate any other nation, or more precisely the reflexively anti-American sentiments of the left in any other nation.


No, of course you shouldn't. However, it is worth considering whether a candidate is experienced in diplomacy when dealing with other nations. It's part of the necessary skill set, and I don't happen to think it's one of Bush's strong points. This isn't a left/right thing - I seem to think that Reagan was rather good at it.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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