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Idiot kills two neighbors, then himself; provides fodder for the anti-gun nazis
Topic Started: Oct 31 2005, 12:45 PM (682 Views)
garrett
Middle Aged Carp
Amanda
Oct 31 2005, 09:05 PM
If many people had more powerful weapons than guns, the same people advocating gun ownership, would be advocating for the more powerful weapon. That's escalation of the offensive/defensive technology. That escalation endangers the entire society. It's an arms race on the individual level.

That's quite a stretch. I haven't seen anyone advocating the ownership of hand grenades (and they've been around for quite some time).

Now, sharks with friggin lasers on their heads...
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Amanda
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Senior Carp
The defense of property is a prime objective, garrett. Try throwing a hand grenade in your house and not risking a bit of damage to grandma's portrait! :P On the other hand, reading about New Orleans, I couldn't help noticing that people with the more powerful weaponry were at a distinct advantage (sorry names escape me) and in fact, the sales of those weapons soared afterwards.

Kind of did for private arms ownership what 9-11 did for cell phones.

On the other hand, if the thugs hadn't had the guns in the first place, the law-abiding citizens wouldn't have needed the guns and ammo stores, either. Sure, sure - people attack with knives too. I know. But the overall cost to the society of weaponry being easily obtained, is very high - and promotes itself over and over.
[size=5]
We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
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"Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005
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garrett
Middle Aged Carp
Amanda
Oct 31 2005, 09:41 PM
On the other hand, if the thugs hadn't had the guns in the first place, the law-abiding citizens wouldn't have needed the guns and ammo stores, either. Sure, sure - people attack with knives too. I know. But the overall cost to the society of weaponry being easily obtained, is very high - and promotes itself over and over.

So how do you get the guns out of the thugs hands?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Quote:
 
I would not presume to tell the UK how they should regulate firearms but there does seem to have been an increase in violent crime and (a specialty with UK criminals) home invasions since firearms were effectively banned from personal use. I have heard all sorts of rationale for why there is no correlation but all I can tell you is that home invasions simply do not occur in these parts. Criminals are not that stupid.


It's difficult to know the reason for the rise in violent crime in the UK. I don't actually believe it's due to the tightening of the gun laws. More anecdotal evidence, but probably surprising to some Americans. I'm a 42 year old, fairly typical male, middle class, 2.4 kids etc, grew up in a medium sized fairly working-class town. I don't personally know a single person in the UK, not one, who's ever owned a hand gun. The only people I know who've owned a gun of any kind were farmers. What this implies, at least for my friends and acquaintances is that the tightening of the gun laws in the UK hasn't made much difference to the average person.

And while you're applying statistics for rising crime rates, do a quick comparison between the death rates due to shootings in the two countries. Guess which one is off the scale. And no, I'm not trying to imply that the realitively horrendous murder figures in the US are solely due to gun ownership, I realise that it's much more complicated than that.

At the end of the day, I believe that most people in the UK don't want guns. Lot's of people in the US do. They're both approximations of democracies, so we should do what the people want. Don't pretend though that the guns are the last, best hope for democracy and freedom.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I do believe it makes a tremendous difference in the mind of the average criminal (or, for that matter, a prospective tyrant) whether a potential victim may be armed or whether it is certain that they are not armed. Hence, the crime deterrent effect when even 10% of people are armed. This is not merely conjecture, BTW. There have been serious studies done amongst convicted criminals to ascertain their state of mind on this.

I don't pretend that guns are the last, best hope for democracy and freedom. They are more like the last line of defense. That is a view that was held by the people who founded this country and has carried through to today.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
Don't pretend though that the guns are the last, best hope for democracy and freedom.


No pretending is necessary. They are.
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Quote:
 
I don't pretend that guns are the last, best hope for democracy and freedom. They are more like the last line of defense. That is a view that was held by the people who founded this country and has carried through to today.


I can appreciate this feeling, even if the world has moved on. There's also the fact that they're pretty cool - :P
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Quote:
 
No pretending is necessary. They are.


Not in England they're not.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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