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Idiot kills two neighbors, then himself; provides fodder for the anti-gun nazis
Topic Started: Oct 31 2005, 12:45 PM (681 Views)
Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9864139/
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Mark, weren't the Nazis rather fond of guns? :P

My concerns over gun ownership don't really relate to loons like this, as I think they'll probably do it anyway. I don't really have a problem with gun ownership, I just think there should be licencing and that training should be enforced on a regular basis. Much the same as for car ownership.

Also, I don't think that anyone who works in IT support should be allowed to own a gun, as the temptation is too great. ;)
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Oct 31 2005, 12:54 PM
Mark, weren't the Nazis rather fond of guns? :P

My concerns over gun ownership don't really relate to loons like this, as I think they'll probably do it anyway. I don't really have a problem with gun ownership, I just think there should be licencing and that training should be enforced on a regular basis. Much the same as for car ownership.

Also, I don't think that anyone who works in IT support should be allowed to own a gun, as the temptation is too great. ;)

Actually John, The Nazis confiscated all the guns of the German populace to avoid any rebellion.


No Licensing! It provides an easy list of those with guns so the they can more easily confiscate them. Look what happened in NO! They were confiscating guns of law abiding citizens who were only trying to defend themselves. It has already become too easy for the government to do this in this country. :veryangry:

Are you trying to say that computer users are aggravating or something? :lol:
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John D'Oh
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No Licensing! It provides an easy list of those with guns so the they can more easily confiscate them. Look what happened in NO! They were confiscating guns of law abiding citizens who were only trying to defend themselves. It has already become too easy for the government to do this in this country.


I take your point, but I can't agree, as it does tend to leave guns in the hands of untrained idiots.

In reality, if the government decides that it really wants to do something, it will do it, licencing or not. If there were a revolt in this country by an armed populace (hopefully an unlikely event, but who knows) I think that the government would be able to squash it very quickly, particularly in the event that somehow a totalitarian regime managed to wangle it's way into power, which is about the only way I can think that such a revolt would be justified. It would take an awful lot of NRA members to take out an M1A1 tank. In addition, the totalitarian regime generally has a lot less reluctance to use things such as nerve gas.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Nina
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I think the guy's problem is that he's been living with his parents, unemployed, since his graduation from high school in 2003.

That's a lot of time spent doing nothing.
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ivorythumper
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John D'Oh
Oct 31 2005, 02:10 PM

It would take an awful lot of NRA members to take out an M1A1.

Not if they let us have the sort of weaponry proper to "a well armed militia", as is our Constitutional right.

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John D'Oh
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Not if they let us have the sort of weaponry proper to "a well armed militia", as is our Constitutional right.


IT, I can't tell whether you're joking or not :P . The thought of RPG's or anti-aircraft weapons being available to anyone who wants one may be arguably permissible within the wording of the constitution, but I'm pretty sure certainly isn't what the authors intended. At what point do you draw the line?

Edit- actually, those things won't take an M1A1, unless you get a very lucky shot.
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JBryan
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Actually, it is the idea that they would have to send out M1A1s rather than lightly armed foot partrols to put down insurrection that is the deterent against tyranny. Think Waco magnified by 1,000.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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John D'Oh
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Actually, it is the idea that they would have to send out M1A1s rather than lightly armed foot partrols to put down insurrection that is the deterent against tyranny. Think Waco magnified by 1,000


I'm sorry, but I disagree. Countries without an armed populace and stable democracies don't generally get overthrown by tyrannies. It's not the armed populace that is the deciding factor, it's the stable democracy. Again, I'm not necessarily saying that there shouldn't be gun ownership, I'm just saying that enforced training gets rid of most of the idiots, and you can't enforce the training without some kind of licencing.

FWIW, I've never owned a gun, and don't want to own a gun. You'd probably already guessed that.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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JBryan
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Countries with stable democracies that have disarmed their populace have a nasty track record for turning into tyrannies. Registration has almost always led to confiscation. In fact, I can think of no instance where it did not. The temptation just seems to be tooo great.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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John D'Oh
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Countries with stable democracies that have disarmed their populace have a nasty track record for turning into tyrannies


They do? Which long-standing stable democracies have turned into tyrannies recently?

I really can't think of any, but I've got a feeling you're about to make me look stupid... what the heck, I'll ask the question anyway, I already look stupid.
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JBryan
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It wasn't the Nazis who enacted registration in Weimar Germany. You may not regard that as a long-standing stable democracy but it left Hitler virtually unchecked in his grab for power. What is to prevent something like that from happening here or in the UK or Australia? frankly, I have my doubts whether, armed or not, our population has the political sophistication to know what tyranny is let alone do something about it.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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AlbertaCrude
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JBryan
Oct 31 2005, 02:12 PM
frankly, I have my doubts whether, armed or not, our population has the political sophistication to know what tyranny is let alone do something about it.

Here, here! :clap:
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John D'Oh
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What is to prevent something like that from happening here or in the UK or Australia?


The fact that they have a stable democracy.

I'm sorry, the UK hasn't had anything remotely resembling a tyrannical government in an awfully long time. In fact, when it did have a partially tyrannical government, as far as I know, there wasn't much control of weaponry for the masses. That argument doesn't wash.

Germany was nothing like a stable democracy when the Nazis took over, and as Mark pointed out, they proceeded to ban guns. This implies to me that there must have been widespread gun ownership in Germany before they got in, and it didn't stop them. I've never heard a serious historian try to claim that it was gun control that led to Nazi Germany.

If you want guns, fine. But why are you resistant to forcing people to learn how to use them properly? I can't think of anything else of equivalent lethality which is freely available with no training.

Quote:
 
frankly, I have my doubts whether, armed or not, our population has the political sophistication to know what tyranny is let alone do something about it


I'd certainly agree with that.
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KlavierBauer
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I don't think any of us have a problem with people using weapons. But having the Government be the one to teach us kind of destroys the purpose.

You mentioned the similarity to driving a car, and that you'd expect the same for gun owners.
Is it safe then to assume that you'd be happy if on your 16th Birthday you just drive down to the courthouse and take your gun-owner test which includes questions like: "should you shoot people when you're mad?" and " which end of the gun is dangerous?" Then you go out to the back, and fire one round through a weapon, and whether it hits the target or not you get your license?
I'm frankly much more worried about kids driving around in their parent's SUV's than people owning guns. The government's control of car licensure has done little to comfort me, or to make driving safe for the rest of us.
We have multiple deaths of high-school aged kids every hear on a particular stretch of highway near here. It's 4 lanes ... wide, no sharp turns. It's always because someone is driving too fast in the snow, or not paying attention to what's going on around them ... yada yada. The government hasn't given us safe drivers with it's licensure process, why would you trust them to provide safe gun owners?
For what it's worth, last month here an illegal alien hit a pedestrian and killed her. Because this area is "safe" for illegals, this individual was released. Needless to say he didn't have a license to drive here. Somehow though he found himself behind the wheel of an automobile ... multiple times (multiple DUI and speeding offenses).

I'm sorry, I just don't buy that government provided training or licensure makes owning guns any more safe.
If anything needs to have training and licensure, it's child rearing - not driving and firearm ownership.

Just my $.02
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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John D'Oh
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To be honest, and with reference solely to the US, I think it's probably too late to introduce any licencing scheme, since gun ownership is so widespread, and it is so deeply rooted in the culture of the country. What I believe is the most sensible approach is to introduce a big PR drive to try and persuade more people who own guns to actively seek training in their use. I don't care whether it's the government or private individuals who provide the training - actually, private lessons are much more likely to be effective. People need to understand that guns can kill people, and they need to understand that leaving a gun where a small child can get hold of it is tantamount to manslaughter. They also need to understand how to shoot straight. What's the statistic - a gun kept in the house is 17 more times likely to kill a family member than an intruder? Doesn't say much for the skills of the gun owners, does it?

With regard to the UK, I believe that given the culture of the country, the much more restrictive gun controls are definitely the correct approach. I strongly believe that the idea of guns being necessary to defend the populous from a tyrannical government is a complete red herring, and I also believe that the evidence of history bears me out. If you've got a tyrannical government, you're screwed whether you have a gun or not.
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JBryan
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You may believe it to be a red herring but the founders of this country did not and they proved it. You may believe modern weapons technology has obviated that but there have been many examples of a determined force prevailing against superior technology. The cost factor just simply is not the same as well. It is fairly easy to work your will against those who cannot fight back at all. Another matter entirely when half of them are armed even if it is with small arms.

I would not presume to tell the UK how they should regulate firearms but there does seem to have been an increase in violent crime and (a specialty with UK criminals) home invasions since firearms were effectively banned from personal use. I have heard all sorts of rationale for why there is no correlation but all I can tell you is that home invasions simply do not occur in these parts. Criminals are not that stupid.

On one thing we can agree. Everyone who owns a firearm should take the responsibility of ensuring they have proper training in their use and safety. People who leave guns laying around for children to play with probably shouldn't have them (possibly meaning guns or children).
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
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What's the statistic - a gun kept in the house is 17 more times likely to kill a family member than an intruder? Doesn't say much for the skills of the gun owners, does it?


It says only that people don't often have to shoot intruders in their home.
If you're trying to imply that gun owners in general lack skill I don't think the math will hold up.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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lb1
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John D'Oh
Oct 31 2005, 06:29 PM
To be honest, and with reference solely to the US, I think it's probably too late to introduce any licencing scheme, since gun ownership is so widespread, and it is so deeply rooted in the culture of the country. What I believe is the most sensible approach is to introduce a big PR drive to try and persuade more people who own guns to actively seek training in their use. I don't care whether it's the government or private individuals who provide the training

When I was going to school, it was mandatory to take one semester of firearm safety and hunter education in high school.

We also had a gun club in high school, just like the chess club or drama club.

Then in the 60's the libbies thought it was totally inappropriate and both the safety class and the club were abolished.

The pendulum swings.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
That statistic was taken from a NEJM study that actually excluded all cases where a firearm was used in the home and a fatality did not occur. In other words, it excluded all cases in which a firearm was used to repel or thwart an intruder without killing him and included all cases of deliberate family member homicide. Only a gun control advocate could employ such twisted logic as to cook up a study like that.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 

People need to understand that guns can kill people, and they need to understand that leaving a gun where a small child can get hold of it is tantamount to manslaughter. They also need to understand how to shoot straight. What's the statistic - a gun kept in the house is 17 more times likely to kill a family member than an intruder? Doesn't say much for the skills of the gun owners, does it?


People need to understand that cars can kill people, and they need to understand that leaving a car where a small child can get hold of it is tantamount to manslaughter. They also need to understand how to drive straight. What's the statistic - a car is 23 more times likely to injure a family member than an gun? Doesn't say much for the skills of the car owners, does it?
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Come on mark, don't you think you're overreacting?
I mean ... cars aren't THAT dangerous... Everyone goes to class, and earns a difficult-to-attain license before they get one. I mean, sure they're dangerous, but not in the hands of licensed individuals!
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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lb1
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Fulla-Carp
Where I grew up the county had close to 100% gun ownership, and like I mentioned we also had safety and training in their care and use. The training and care of firearms was not just at school, every kid was taught by their father how to handle a gun before they went to school.

In the 1940’s (10 years) there was only one violent gun death, and two gun accidents (one fatality). In the 50’s, there were no violent deaths, and two accidental gun deaths (one was a friend, and I saw it happen). In 1965 the safety and training classes and gun club was abolished, and in the 60’s there was again no violent deaths and two gun accidents (one fatality).

In the 70’s things started changing, there were 2 violent gun deaths and 5 accidents (two fatalities). In the 80’s there were 4 violent gun deaths and 7 accidents (4 fatalities). Anybody see a trend developing here. In the late 80’s and through the 90’s there was an effort by the liberals to reduce or control the firearms in our county because of the rising deaths. Firearm ownership was probably reduced 50% but it didn’t help, in the 90’s there were 6 violent deaths and 11 accidents (5 fatalities). The first 5 years of the new millennium has already matched the statistics of the 90’s.

When you consider that the population has remained fairly steady, only an 8% increase in 50 years, I’d say the statistics are pretty alarming.

“Guns don’t kill people, liberals do.”

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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Amanda
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Nina
Oct 31 2005, 05:12 PM
I think the guy's problem is that he's been living with his parents, unemployed, since his graduation from high school in 2003.

That's a lot of time spent doing nothing.

Chances are that he's been living with his parents, unemployed, BECAUSE he has a "problem" not the other way around. :sad:
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We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
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Amanda
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KlavierBauer
Oct 31 2005, 09:28 PM

I'm frankly much more worried about kids driving around in their parent's SUV's than people owning guns.

The main difference between gun ownership/licensure and car ownership/licensure is that people use automobiles for a utilitarian purpose: to get somewhere too far or too inconvenient to walk.

Other than hunters, people have guns to protect themselves from other people with guns.

If many people had more powerful weapons than guns, the same people advocating gun ownership, would be advocating for the more powerful weapon. That's escalation of the offensive/defensive technology. That escalation endangers the entire society. It's an arms race on the individual level.

Except for the marketing/lifestyle angle, people's ownership of cars is not affected by other people's car ownership. Car ownership is an an end in itself.

[size=5]
We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
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"Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005
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