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Is the US hostile to science?
Topic Started: Oct 28 2005, 08:26 PM (2,854 Views)
Optimistic
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HOLY CARP!!!
I can definitely see how there are MANY people (especially in the public eye, unfortunately) who would fall into the "buying your way into heaven" category- doing good deads without having good motives for them (like donating to some charity to glorify oneself). However, I am referring more towards the honest, loving, generous folks who just happen to not have faith in God. I guess I have in mind specifically this one friend who fits the above description. She is an amazing person, one of the most least-selfish and genuine human beings I know. But because of the way she was brought up, she is agnostic. I guess I just have a hard time believing that God would not look take her whole life and circumstances into account and automatically reject her, just for not knowing Him.
PHOTOS

I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much as a week, sometimes, to make it up.
- Mark Twain


We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
-T. S. Eliot
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Quote:
 
However, I am referring more towards the honest, loving, generous folks who just happen to not have faith in God.


Well, me too; that's who I was referring to as well.

Quote:
 
I guess I just have a hard time believing that God would not look take her whole life and circumstances into account and automatically reject her, just for not knowing Him.


Well, they say "do not judge lest ye be judged", but if you want to force an answer out of me, I have a feeling that rejecting Jesus is a pretty sore spot with Upstairs Management.

I mean, are you going to be invited to a party where the hosts know you're not interested in attending?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Quote:
 
Well, they say "do not judge lest ye be judged", but if you want to force an answer out of me, I have a feeling that rejecting Jesus is a pretty sore spot with Upstairs Management.


Why though? If a human being behaved that way 'Any one who didn't vote for me is going to get punished' they'd be rightfully condemned. Is God insecure?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Well I'm no priest, and I'm sure no Bible expert, but my only means of explanation is the analogy I posted. I'm just glad I'm not in the position to make the call!
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Optimistic
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HOLY CARP!!!
In some cases, though, it's not so much a case of "rejecting" as it is a case of "never being informed."
PHOTOS

I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much as a week, sometimes, to make it up.
- Mark Twain


We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
-T. S. Eliot
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Well I'm sure Jesus' name has come up at some point by now. Choosing to not even check Him out definitely qualifies as passive rejection.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Optimistic
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Nov 2 2005, 12:38 PM


I mean, are you going to be invited to a party where the hosts know you're not interested in attending?

It's a good analogy, but I don't think it's very fitting to compare God with a party host. If a host knows that someone is not interested in his/her party, he/she will not bother with the invitation. However, I'm sure that God is not that apathetic in including everyone. He would like nothing more than for everyone to make it to His "party."
PHOTOS

I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much as a week, sometimes, to make it up.
- Mark Twain


We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
-T. S. Eliot
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Quote:
 
Well I'm sure Jesus' name has come up at some point by now. Choosing to not even check Him out definitely qualifies as passive rejection.


Here's a hypothetical case. A young boy grows up in a religious family, and regularly goes to church. Tragically, the local priest abuses the child, which leads to an understandable, although arguably misdirected, loss of faith.

The priest sees the error of his ways, and asks God for forgiveness. The boy is quite naturally disillusioned and becomes embittered towards religion in general.

Which one goes to heaven?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Optimistic
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HOLY CARP!!!
(as a side note, sometimes it's hard for me to get into this serious debate when I look to the left and see our conversation complemented with cartoon characters dancing and a man with pencils stuck up his nostrils) :lol:
PHOTOS

I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much as a week, sometimes, to make it up.
- Mark Twain


We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
-T. S. Eliot
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
How dare you! Those pencils help me to think! Also, they block out all the killer rays that the GOP are constantly beaming at me to stop me from having any more children!
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Quote:
 
However, I'm sure that God is not that apathetic in including everyone. He would like nothing more than for everyone to make it to His "party."


Well, I'll admit that it's not a perfect analogy, but I still refuse to believe God would give you a "get out of Hell free card" just because people think you're a nice guy. Even murderers and rapists have friends that think the world of them, so I doubt kind words bear any weight on one's Judgement.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Optimistic
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HOLY CARP!!!
Well, obviously I don't mean what others say about you. God knows what kind of a human being each of us truly is. I just would like to think that maybe He takes that into consideration too, regardless of faith.
PHOTOS

I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much as a week, sometimes, to make it up.
- Mark Twain


We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
-T. S. Eliot
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
I'd like that too, but I don't think that's necessarily a Christian belief.

Rom. 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

MAN it'd be nice to hear Dwain or Ivory's thoughts on this one.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Embedded in this conversation are some of the most crucial questions in the Christian faith:

1. Was the intent of Christ's crucifxion and resurrection to save all humankind, or merely make salvation accessible to all humankind? Put another way, was the intent of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection to save all humankind, or only the portion of humankind who placed their faith in the Son of God as their Lord and Savior?

2. If Christ's redemptive act is only theoretically for everyone, but not everyone ultimately obtains its potential benefit, who is the primary determinant of who will, and who will not, ultimately be redeemed through Christ - an individual, or God, or some combination? If a combination, what is the nature of the combination?

3. What does it really mean to be "born again?" Is it something that is limited solely to evangelical Christian belief?

4. When Jesus said, "No one will come to the Father but through me," what exactly did that mean? Was it limited only to professed faith in Jesus Christ, the fully human incarnation of the Son of God? Does creation testify about God and God's will, in some way, more or less complete, through the work of the eternal Son of God, independent of the incarnation in Jesus Christ? If yes, is adhering to a moral/spiritual set of beliefs established as a result of this "natural testimony" equally valid in obtaining redemption and eternal communion with God?

5. What exactly does it mean to "reject" Christ? Is it anyone who is not a follower of Christianity? Does it require an act of telling to gospel in a manner in which it is readily understandable and the listener is free to accept or reject its message?

In a sense, you are all working through the whole of classical ecumenical Christian theology, and the Protestant Reformation, all at the same time in this thread.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Nov 2 2005, 09:51 AM
MAN it'd be nice to hear Dwain or Ivory's thoughts on this one.

Personally, I'm just enjoying reading the conversation.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Faster than superman and batman combined, it took Dwain only 6 minutes to respond. Thanks a lot, Dwain! :thumb: Put into perspective very well.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Optimistic
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HOLY CARP!!!
Yes, thanks for the input, Dwain! :)
PHOTOS

I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much as a week, sometimes, to make it up.
- Mark Twain


We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
-T. S. Eliot
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Here's another I looked up regarding our topic:

Gal 5:19-21
"Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, 15 drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

To me, I interpret that to mean we must be sorry for our sins, and they must be forgiven in order for us to enter the Kingdom of God. How would one do that without faith and belief in Jesus?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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The 89th Key
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Aqua Letifer
Nov 2 2005, 11:38 AM
Quote:
 
However, I am referring more towards the honest, loving, generous folks who just happen to not have faith in God.


Well, me too; that's who I was referring to as well.

Quote:
 
I guess I just have a hard time believing that God would not look take her whole life and circumstances into account and automatically reject her, just for not knowing Him.


Well, they say "do not judge lest ye be judged", but if you want to force an answer out of me, I have a feeling that rejecting Jesus is a pretty sore spot with Upstairs Management.

I mean, are you going to be invited to a party where the hosts know you're not interested in attending?

Wow, you are spot on today Aqua! That's how I feel many times...where if an answer must be forced out, it's usually one of judgement and condemnation, and an answer many people do not want to hear.

Opt, one of my best friends also falls into the agnostic category. He sort of believes in "a god", but that's about as far as he goes. According to the Bible, he isn't saved. Now of course I don't know him as well as God does, so his judgement isn't up to me.

It's odd to think that very nice people, by earthly standards, aren't saved. But we are ALL sinners, and we all have the chance to believe in God, Jesus, etc. If we reject his message, that's our own decision.

God is standing at the door and knocking. It's up to us to open that door.
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The 89th Key
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We all know people whom we value, who seem like genuinely good, kind people. But the Bible makes it clear that even these people have sinned and fallen short of God's perfect standards.

* "There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins." (Ecclesiastes 7:20)

* "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

God sees a person's total heart, sees all of their actions, and knows all of their words and thoughts. So God has a lot more info to use when judging someone. It is with this complete knowledge that God can judge us righteously. The Bible says that "God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart" (1Samuel 16:7).

So how does this affect the whole heaven and hell question? It puts everyone on an equal playing field. The good people (people that we think are good) are in the same position as the bad people (people who we think are bad). Because, in reality, from God's perspective, no one perfectly follows His commands, His ways. There is in everyone of us that inner drive that says, "I don't care. I'm going to do it anyway."

In fact, the Bible says that "All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way" (Isaiah 53:6). In big and small ways, all of us have forsaken God and gone our own way, away from Him.

The antidote then is to turn back to God. The Bible calls this "repentance." When a person truly turns back to God, there is no sin that is too big for God to forgive in that person's life. God provided the means of forgiveness of sin in Jesus Christ's death on the cross. And God offers His forgiveness and eternal life to anyone who will believe in Jesus. Heaven is a free gift offered to anyone who will ask for God's forgiveness (His grace) and ask Jesus to come into their life. Here is how the Bible describes someone who turns to God in this way:

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world ...All of us also lived ...gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of [God's] wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions -- it is by grace you have been saved. ...in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:1-9)

All through the Bible God makes it clear that we gain heaven, not by our "good works" or "good life," but that God offers it to all as a gift. Rather than pretend that we are good people, He asks us to admit that we sin against Him.

We can focus on life after death, but what about our life right now? We can interact with God and be guided by Him right now, and experience the life He created us to have. There is no relationship on earth as fulfilling and important as knowing God. If you want that after death, you have to start it now.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Quote:
 
It's odd to think that very nice people, by earthly standards, aren't saved. But we are ALL sinners, and we all have the chance to believe in God, Jesus, etc. If we reject his message, that's our own decision.

God is standing at the door and knocking. It's up to us to open that door.


Good post, 89th!

I guess I had to think a bit to verbalize this, but you touched on it pretty well. We are all guilty of mortal sin, so I don't see how rejecting Jesus allows for the possibility of forgiveness. And as far as I know, that's a pretty big prerequisite to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Nov 2 2005, 10:09 AM
How dare you! Those pencils help me to think! Also, they block out all the killer rays that the GOP are constantly beaming at me to stop me from having any more children!

Just to clarify, it's the Dems who promote contraception and abortion-- the Reps want you to have lots of kids (within the bounds of legitimate and traditional marriage, blah, blah, blah...) ;)
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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The 89th Key
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John, I didn't miss your hypothetical, although it seems to have been ignored.

That's an interesting situation. On face value, even a rapist, a murderer, can repent their sins, and if they are truly sorry, etc...and are "born again", they will go to Heaven. Also, the boy, if he rejects Jesus, then he will not go to Heaven. Of course, situations aren't always that simple, so I wouldn't put too much stock in my answer.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Rick Zimmer
Nov 1 2005, 10:15 PM
ivorythumper
Nov 1 2005, 11:51 AM
One of the most interesting points of Ratzinger's (Pope Benedict XVI) was an invitation to atheists to "behave as if God existed". It would seem if all men and women of good will -- Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic, Jew, agnostic, and atheist -- behaved as if there really was an objective moral order, as if there really was "right and wrong", "good and bad", as if the great principle was (1) there is a higher power in the universe, and (2) you are not it, as if the goal was to get rid of the ego and attachments rather than to inflate it and acquire things --  then indeed the world would be a better place and people would be happier and have more peace and joy.

Hmmm....

I understand what you and Benedict are saying, thumps, but I do not agree with your implied dichotomy.

I think most people do act in a moral way, as they understand their own morality. And much of that morality does parallel Christian morality.

The implication that Christians act morally and other do not and hence should pretend that God exists (or in the case of non-Christian religions pretend that the Christian concept of God is the correct concept), strikes me as arrogant and amazingly self-righteous.

To further imply that people who claim to be Christians do not avaricely seek after material good and non-Christians do seems to me to be contrary to reality. There are a great many non-Christians I know who understand fully and completely that material goods are not satisfying and there are a helluva a lot of so-called Christians I know who will step on anyone they need to to get ahead for nothing more an material gain or to achieve fame and fortune.

I would have been much happier and found much easier to accept if Benedict had urged Christians to actually live what they say the believe. Damn! If we could get all 2 billion Christians in the world actually living a Christian life and treating all like Christ would treat them, the world would be the place Benedict wants it to be.

Rick:

You are inferring a dichotomy where none exists, and in fact is explicitly rejected in the phrase "all men and women of good will -- Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic, Jew, agnostic, and atheist ".

Christians are also called to act like Christ. It is part of the Catholic thing.

There is no implication that Christians act morally and others do not. This is your projection on the Pope's words. There is no claim that Christians are not greedy, lustful, power grabbing, or sinful -- all the forgoing is sadly true and quite contrary to the Church's "evangelical counsels" of poverty, chastity and obedience that the Holy Father calls us to.

Also, as pointed out by others, it is not "pretending". It is rather "acting" as if there indeed is a higher law and moral order to which all are ultimately accountable -- that the person or even the society at large is not the arbiter of law and morality. It is predicated on the notion that there is a transcending moral order that impinges on the hearts and minds of all human beings, and that society has a duty to (as best as possible) conform its own laws to the order of the human person in all the dignity and respectful of the ends we have as sons and daughters of God.

So, as you also point out, this is indeed "traditional Catholic theology". I am not sure whether you think that is a good thing or a bad thing, since you seem quite willing to disregard traditional Catholic theology when it suits you (as in the case of Humanae Vitae).
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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Just to clarify, it's the Dems who promote contraception and abortion-- the Reps want you to have lots of kids


I don't want any more kids, I just want lots of sex! Which party will get me that? They'll get my vote in an instant.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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