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Is the US hostile to science?
Topic Started: Oct 28 2005, 08:26 PM (2,855 Views)
The 89th Key
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Aqua Letifer
Nov 2 2005, 10:45 AM
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Just a hypothesis, but maybe more Protestants "choose" to go to church later in life.


Do you mean, more protestants as opposed to catholics?

Exactly.

What I'm saying is that maybe Catholics don't really use the term, because it seems there are more "cradle catholics" than "cradle protestants".
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John D'Oh
Nov 2 2005, 10:46 AM
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For example, you can't be saved just by giving to charities or helping everyone. That's great, and is encouraged, but without faith in JC, you're pretty much doomed....


Ghandi.

Jerry Falwell.

Who would you rather spend eternity with?

Funny...but not a legitimate talking point.
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Rick Zimmer
Nov 2 2005, 10:45 AM
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Nov 2 2005, 08:40 AM
Not within the Catholic/Protestant religion, Rick.

Are you telling me more Christians believe that you can be saved without believing in Jesus that those who don't?

I am saying that in Catholic theology, we do not assume to know how God judges each individual. However, we recognize that there are many very good, even holy, non-Christians and non-believers.

The concept of a loving, all-just and all-merciful God would seem to logically conclude that those who sincerely seek to do what is right will be judged accordingly.

Oh, there are definitely are very good "non-believers" out there, but Jesus makes it very clear that you can not be saved without believing in him.

Perhaps that is God being fair and just right there. We are all sinners, and He says the only way to be saved is through faith in Jesus Christ. He gives us a way to be saved, and it's up to us to follow or reject.

I think that's very fair and just and merciful.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Something about not buying your way into heaven might be appropriate here.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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Funny...but not a legitimate talking point.


I wasn't being funny. Actually, what I should have asked was 'Who do you think God would prefer to spend eternity with?'

It's a very legitimate question. IMO, faith is not more important than a persons actions. I believe that faith is involuntary, it certainly is for me. Therefore if your God is going to send me to burn because of what I believe, I don't wish to worship him, as I don't believe that it is warranted.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Aqua Letifer
Nov 2 2005, 10:50 AM
Something about not buying your way into heaven might be appropriate here.

I completely agree. Many catholics and protestants should learn that.
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John, I think faith is more important than actions. I also think actions complement faith, and make it stronger. Faith without works is dead. But I think faith is still the most important part. The first step.

Also, I believe faith IS voluntary to some degree. You choose whether or not to believe in something, whether you can physically touch it or not.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I'm sorry, I don't believe in God. This may change, but I can't force myself to believe in God.

In addition, I would no more bow down and worship a God who demanded this of me than I would worship a God who destroyed the earth with a flood because he didn't like what his people were doing. I'm truly sorry if this offends you, but I believe that these are the actions of a spoilt child, not an omnipotent and loving creator.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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That's fine John, I understand. I can see where you're coming from and it definitely doesn't offend me.

Of course, because of my views, I hope one day you will believe! I'll personally throw a party the day you do. ;) With strippers and alcohol, and...oh, that kinda defeats the purpose. :whome:

I enjoy talking with you though, since it's good to get a REASONABLE point of view from the other side, and vice versa I'm sure.
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Optimistic
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HOLY CARP!!!
I am a Catholic.

I know some incredibly generous, loving non-Christians.

I know some disappointingly selfish and non-Christian-like Christians.

I sincerely hope that our loving God's qualification for entrance into heaven is not solely acceptance of Jesus as Saviour. It would break my heart to think of all the wonderful individuals who would be left out.

You cannot say things in such absolute terms, like "If you are a Christian you are definitely going to heaven", or "If you do not know Christ, you are damned." Does this mean that people who have a geographic or cultural "disadvantage" for being Christian (such as those born to atheist parents, or those born in non-Christian cultures), does this mean that they haven't a chance? I just find that hard to believe. That's not the God I was told about.
PHOTOS

I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much as a week, sometimes, to make it up.
- Mark Twain


We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
-T. S. Eliot
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Well, J.C. Himself said the only way to get to heaven is through Him...

That rings a bell with the God I was told about.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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They have a chance, of course...but I agree that circumstances make it harder for some people.

Each person is different. Each person has their own level of faith, or lack thereof. God will judge these people and no one on earth should try. I certainly hope you don't think I am.

Listen, I'm not claiming to know everything about the Bible, but I do know one thing...and that if you reject Jesus, you can not be saved. God, Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, they are all very, very, very clear on this.
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Aqua Letifer
Nov 2 2005, 11:24 AM
Well, J.C. Himself said the only way to get to heaven is through Him...

That rings a bell with the God I was told about.

:yes:
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Rick Zimmer
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Aqua Letifer
Nov 2 2005, 09:24 AM
Well, J.C. Himself said the only way to get to heaven is through him...

That rings a bell with the God I was told about.

True enough, and because of his salvific act on the cross, all do have access to heaven through him.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Optimistic
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HOLY CARP!!!
Alright boys, well let's discuss this then: what does it mean that the only way is "through him"? Does that mean accepting him as Saviour? Does that mean having Christ-like actions, living your life the way he said we should? Does it mean simply that him dying for us allows everyone the chance at heaven?
PHOTOS

I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much as a week, sometimes, to make it up.
- Mark Twain


We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
-T. S. Eliot
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Quote:
 

True enough, and because of his salvific act on the cross, all do have access to heaven through him.


Exactamundo!
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Optimistic
Nov 2 2005, 11:27 AM
Alright boys, well lets discuss this then: what does it mean that the only way is "through him"? Does that mean accepting him as Saviour? Does that mean having Christ-like actions, living your life the way he said we should? Does it mean simply that him dying for us allows everyone the chance at heaven?


Quite simply...yes.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
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Does that mean accepting him as Saviour?


Yes, as far as I can tell. That's what they told me in sunday school, and now that I can formulate my own ideas, I'm inclined to agree.

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Does that mean having Christ-like actions, living your life the way he said we should?


While it is true that "faith without works is dead", works without faith lies in the whole buying your way into heaven category if you ask me.

Quote:
 
Does it mean simply that him dying for us allows everyone the chance at heaven?


Everyone has a chance, sure. I can guarentee you that His Sacrifice isn't the only requirement for our Salvation. It seems that the burden of proof is always on us; Jesus took care of His end long ago.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Optimistic
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HOLY CARP!!!
So a non-Christian who acts in a Christ-like way is able to reach heaven?
PHOTOS

I must have a prodigious quantity of mind; it takes me as much as a week, sometimes, to make it up.
- Mark Twain


We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
-T. S. Eliot
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VERY GOOD POST Aqua, I couldn't agree more.

I especially liked:

Quote:
 
While it is true that "faith without works is dead", works without faith lies in the whole buying your way into heaven category if you ask me.


Very well put.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
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So a non-Christian who acts in a Christ-like way is able to reach heaven?


Not necessarily. But I'm not going to worry about that, since I don't have to make the call.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
Optimistic
Nov 2 2005, 09:27 AM
Does it mean simply that him dying for us allows everyone the chance at heaven?

Yes.

And it is up to each person to find his/her appropriate path to the salvation already gained for us through Jesus.

How? By sincerely seeking truth as best each of us can, and then living accordingly.

Of course, I think most people do this, Christian or not.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Optimistic
Nov 2 2005, 11:31 AM
So a non-Christian who acts in a Christ-like way is able to reach heaven?

The term "Christian" is too vague, unfortunately.

If you're asking if a person who doesn't believe in Jesus can get to Heaven, the Bible says no. You must believe in Jesus as your personal Savior.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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Well, J.C. Himself said the only way to get to heaven is through Him...

That rings a bell with the God I was told about


That's actually open to some debate. I'm not qualified to get into a big discussion about the literal truth of the bible, but Jesus didn't actually write the book. It was written by a third party, who may or may not have had his own agenda, or a slightly bad memory, or someone told someone who told someone, etc. And I know that many believe that it's the word of God, but it was written by people, who are always fallible.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Rick Zimmer
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Optimistic
Nov 2 2005, 09:31 AM
So a non-Christian who acts in a Christ-like way is able to reach heaven?

That's God's decision.

However, based on what I believe about God, all signs point to yes.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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