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Is the US hostile to science?
Topic Started: Oct 28 2005, 08:26 PM (2,856 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
John D'Oh
Nov 1 2005, 10:15 AM
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That is not to say that the believer cannot backslide into non-belief - I am not a proponent of the "once-saved, always-saved" contingent.


This is the kind of statement that I have a problem with. I feel that a person can only believe what they believe, it's very largely an involuntary process. I know that you won't agree with this, but I believe that in a spiritual context that our actions are more important than our beliefs.

In addition, if there is a God, and if he is the Christian God, it seems more than a little unfair that as a non-Christian Ghandi isn't saved, whereas, to pick a horrible example, Jerry Falwell has some chance of heaven. I'm not saying that Falwell can't and shouldn't be forgiven (that's not my decision), but that maybe he should be further down the queue than Ghandi, who to my eyes at least was much closer to living the Christian ideal.

In a spritual context, it seems to me that your actions should mirror your beliefs.

That doesn't always happen, so many times we are left with one chasing the other...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Rick Zimmer
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ivorythumper
Nov 1 2005, 11:51 AM
One of the most interesting points of Ratzinger's (Pope Benedict XVI) was an invitation to atheists to "behave as if God existed". It would seem if all men and women of good will -- Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic, Jew, agnostic, and atheist -- behaved as if there really was an objective moral order, as if there really was "right and wrong", "good and bad", as if the great principle was (1) there is a higher power in the universe, and (2) you are not it, as if the goal was to get rid of the ego and attachments rather than to inflate it and acquire things -- then indeed the world would be a better place and people would be happier and have more peace and joy.

Hmmm....

I understand what you and Benedict are saying, thumps, but I do not agree with your implied dichotomy.

I think most people do act in a moral way, as they understand their own morality. And much of that morality does parallel Christian morality.

The implication that Christians act morally and other do not and hence should pretend that God exists (or in the case of non-Christian religions pretend that the Christian concept of God is the correct concept), strikes me as arrogant and amazingly self-righteous.

To further imply that people who claim to be Christians do not avaricely seek after material good and non-Christians do seems to me to be contrary to reality. There are a great many non-Christians I know who understand fully and completely that material goods are not satisfying and there are a helluva a lot of so-called Christians I know who will step on anyone they need to to get ahead for nothing more an material gain or to achieve fame and fortune.

I would have been much happier and found much easier to accept if Benedict had urged Christians to actually live what they say the believe. Damn! If we could get all 2 billion Christians in the world actually living a Christian life and treating all like Christ would treat them, the world would be the place Benedict wants it to be.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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bachophile
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rz, in think that what u wrote is not what pope benedict was saying.

i dont think, (at least as IT quotes, i havent read the original) he was dividing the world into christian and non christian morals in the world.

on the contrary, he seems to be saying, to forget dogma and forget sectarianism, if u lead your life in a "spiritual" mode", and it doenst matter if that takes the form of a religion, a personal ethic, or just a crystal to view the world, the recognition that man can live a holy life, would be sufficient to change the world.

now obviously what is a holy life could be debated.

but that brings me back to..., love your neighbor as yourself, (that is the whole law, all else is commentary). that would be enough to change the world.

john lennon was right, love is the answer...as cynical as i am about this mortal coil, it all comes down to this.

ok now back to my regular cynical self.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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bachophile
Nov 2 2005, 07:06 AM


on the contrary, he seems to be saying, to forget dogma and forget sectarianism, if u lead your life in a "spiritual" mode", and it doenst matter if that takes the form of a religion, a personal ethic, or just a crystal to view the world, the recognition that man can live a holy life, would be sufficient to change the world.

now obviously what is a holy life could be debated.

but that brings me back to..., love your neighbor as yourself, (that is the whole law, all else is commentary). that would be enough to change the world.

john lennon was right, love is the answer...as cynical as i am about this mortal coil, it all comes down to this.

ok now back to my regular cynical self.

very wise........ I like how u rticulated that.
it behooves me to behold
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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The implication that Christians act morally and other do not and hence should pretend that God exists (or in the case of non-Christian religions pretend that the Christian concept of God is the correct concept), strikes me as arrogant and amazingly self-righteous.


I don't think he meant 'pretend that God exists', but 'act as though he does' - i.e be as good as you can be within your own personal values. This applies to Christians as well as us non-believers.

It's a lot better than 'You're going to burn in hell-ah, because you haven't found the Lord-ah! Let me hear you say Burn!'
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Rick Zimmer
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John D'Oh
Nov 2 2005, 06:38 AM
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The implication that Christians act morally and other do not and hence should pretend that God exists (or in the case of non-Christian religions pretend that the Christian concept of God is the correct concept), strikes me as arrogant and amazingly self-righteous.


I don't think he meant 'pretend that God exists', but 'act as though he does' - i.e be as good as you can be within your own personal values. This applies to Christians as well as us non-believers.

It's a lot better than 'You're going to burn in hell-ah, because you haven't found the Lord-ah! Let me hear you say Burn!'

If that is what he meant, than this is traditional Catholic theology -- seriously seek the truth and act as you understand it and one can be saved.

There is no strict teaching of believe and you are saved, do not believe and you are damned in Catholic or Orthodox teachings or in much of mainstream Protestant teaching. Such a concept is held by a very small percentage of Christians-- they just seem to have more time on their hands to be vocal, bombastic and exceedingly judgemental than most of the Christian world.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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There is no strict teaching of believe and you are saved, do not beleive and you are damned in Catholic or Orthodox teachings or in much of mainstream Protestant teaching. Such a concept is held by a very small percentage of Christians-- they just see to have more time on their hands to be vocal, bombastic and exceedingly judgemental than most of the Christian world.


Sadly the extremes always seem to get a disproportionate amount of airplay. Just look at the way muslims are portrayed. Whatever sells newspapers, I guess.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Rick Zimmer
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John D'Oh
Nov 2 2005, 07:05 AM
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There is no strict teaching of believe and you are saved, do not believe and you are damned in Catholic or Orthodox teachings or in much of mainstream Protestant teaching. Such a concept is held by a very small percentage of Christians-- they just seem to have more time on their hands to be vocal, bombastic and exceedingly judgemental than most of the Christian world.


Sadly the extremes always seem to get a disproportionate amount of airplay. Just look at the way muslims are portrayed. Whatever sells newspapers, I guess.

Which is why it is time for Christians adhering to mainstream Christian teachings to label the extremists for what they are and send them back to the fringes where they rightly belong, just as we want the mainstream Muslims to reject the extremist Islamic teachings.

The extremists not only damage the religion they purport to speak for, but when political leaders begin to act as if these are the mainstream beliefs, serious political consequences follow.

[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Nina
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Rick Zimmer
Nov 2 2005, 06:52 AM

There is no strict teaching of believe and you are saved, do not believe and you are damned in Catholic or Orthodox teachings or in much of mainstream Protestant teaching. Such a concept is held by a very small percentage of Christians-- they just seem to have more time on their hands to be vocal, bombastic and exceedingly judgemental than most of the Christian world.

I'm not sure if that's true. As I understand it, the basis of the whole "born again" Evangelical movement (which is growing by leaps and bounds) is that you aren't saved unless you are born again. There is some debate about how long your saved status lasts (if you're truly born again, is there lifetime immunity from eternal damnation, or must you remain in the light from there on out).

I think it's the cornerstone of many people's faith.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
As a Catholic, I say that's not mine, that's for sure.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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I'm not sure if that's true. As I understand it, the basis of the whole "born again" Evangelical movement (which is growing by leaps and bounds) is that you aren't saved unless you are born again. There is some debate about how long your saved status lasts (if you're truly born again, is there lifetime immunity from eternal damnation, or must you remain in the light from there on out).

I think it's the cornerstone of many people's faith.


It's a pretty useful marketing tool as well. Everbody burns except us.

Ah well, maybe the company will be better down there.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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The 89th Key
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Aqua, what do you mean that's not yours? I'm just not sure what you're referring to.

I'm sure Dwain will have some good insight on this, but personally I think once you are saved, you're saved for good. Nothing can take it away. I think this because I think if one truly believes and is born again, his or her life will reflect such change.

I also think that you need to be born again, that is, accept Jesus as personal savior, he is the Son of God, that he rose from the dead, died for our sins, etc...
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
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is that you aren't saved unless you are born again...
...lifetime immunity from eternal damnation...


That's not what I believe. I believe NObody can really say that for sure. Moreover, I think that a) you might be able to screw up your salvation, and b) you might be able to be saved if you aren't "born again".
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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The 89th Key
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Well...sorta. I mean, born again is pretty vague. At least for me, it generally means what I said up there. Which according to the Bible is the only way to be saved.

For example, you can't be saved just by giving to charities or helping everyone. That's great, and is encouraged, but without faith in JC, you're pretty much doomed....
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Rick Zimmer
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Nina
Nov 2 2005, 08:23 AM
Rick Zimmer
Nov 2 2005, 06:52 AM

There is no strict teaching of believe and you are saved, do not believe and you are damned in Catholic or Orthodox teachings or in much of mainstream Protestant teaching.  Such a concept is held by a very small percentage of Christians-- they just seem to have more time on their hands to be vocal, bombastic and exceedingly judgemental than most of the Christian world.

I'm not sure if that's true. As I understand it, the basis of the whole "born again" Evangelical movement (which is growing by leaps and bounds) is that you aren't saved unless you are born again. There is some debate about how long your saved status lasts (if you're truly born again, is there lifetime immunity from eternal damnation, or must you remain in the light from there on out).

I think it's the cornerstone of many people's faith.

Keep in mind, Nina, that this sort of tgheology is unique to the United States, for the most part.

When one looks at worldwide Christianity, the "believe or be damned" American evangelicals are a very small percentage.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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The 89th Key
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Not within the Catholic/Protestant religion, Rick.

Are you telling me more Christians believe that you can be saved without believing in Jesus that those who don't?
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
The 89th Key
Nov 2 2005, 08:30 AM


I also think that you need to be born again, that is, accept Jesus as personal savior, he is the Son of God, that he rose from the dead, died for our sins, etc...

While I recognize the question "do you accept Jesus as your personal saviour" refers primarily to a conversion experience for many Protestants, it is not a question most Catholics or Orthodox would even think to ask, much less make so pivotal.

To us, Jesus is the savior of mankind, so the question strikes us a redundant. If He saved mankind, of course He saved me. Why even ask?
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Okay, so you're saying that "born again" means believing in Jesus? Well, that's fine. I suppose I don't necessarily like the way that term has been used in some situations. As a cradle Catholic, I can't remember the first time I stepped into a church or the first time I was told about Jesus, any of that stuff. So it's not like I can say "well yes, there was a time in my life where I was not a Christian, but then one day I changed my ways and now I'm born again."

Btw, Rick, you hit the nail on the head about that one. I never really knew what to say to the holy rollers who'd show up at my door. I just wanna say "hey, same league man, just on different teams, it's cool! Don't waste your time with me!"
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
what about the this rapture and left behind business.

it seems to have a big following, is that mainstream protestant thinking? or just fringe?

a little bit weird, if u ask me.

but i dont mind weird...
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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The 89th Key
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Maybe that's the thing, then. Just a hypothesis, but maybe more Protestants "choose" to go to church later in life.

Personally, I am a "cradle protestant", so I can't talk...
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The 89th Key
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I read one of those books. Pretty interesting and it makes you think about what the end times will be like...
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
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Just a hypothesis, but maybe more Protestants "choose" to go to church later in life.


Do you mean, more protestants as opposed to catholics?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
The 89th Key
Nov 2 2005, 08:40 AM
Not within the Catholic/Protestant religion, Rick.

Are you telling me more Christians believe that you can be saved without believing in Jesus that those who don't?

I am saying that in Catholic theology, we do not assume to know how God judges each individual. However, we recognize that there are many very good, even holy, non-Christians and non-believers.

The concept of a loving, all-just and all-merciful God would seem to logically conclude that those who sincerely seek to do what is right will be judged accordingly.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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The 89th Key
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Aqua, maybe I'm mistaken, but that's what "born again" means for me.

Personally, I have always believed in Jesus, as far back as I remember. But I still consider myself "born again" even though I can't pinpoint one time where I made "the decision".

I might be using "born again" wrong, but that's what I think of when people use the term. It's a great term, and hopefully not abused.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
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For example, you can't be saved just by giving to charities or helping everyone. That's great, and is encouraged, but without faith in JC, you're pretty much doomed....


Ghandi.

Jerry Falwell.

Who would you rather spend eternity with?

It's a marketing tool. Just my humble opinion, of course, since none of us have actually heard God's take on the matter directly.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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