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The Biggest Story is NOT the Indictment
Topic Started: Oct 28 2005, 08:14 PM (803 Views)
Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
To me, the biggest story on the White House scandal is not the indictment. This will play itself out in whatever way it does.

Even Rove's continuing vulnerability is not the big story to me.

To me, the biggest story is that the investigation is continuing AND with a new grand jury.

The fact Fitzgerald is continuing tells me there is obviously more there that he has found. The fact he is getting a new grand jury tells me he does not need to "memory" of the old grand jury (he could have had its term extended) but is moving into an entirely different area than where he has been, one which a new grand jury will investigate.

Keep in mind, a Special Prosecutor is tasked with following up on anything he finds, in whichever path it goes. Keep in mind too that under Clinton, the Whitewater investigation was the original purpose of the Special Investigator. But this led to the the Rose Law Firm and that led to the White House Travel Office and that led ultimately to investigating Clinton for having sex in the White House and lying about it in his testimony. Clinton was exopnerated on each of those, especially the initial purpose of the investigation. It was where the investigation led that became the problem.

If Fitzgerald just needed a little more time to clean things up, he could have had the grand jury's term extended a few months. He chose not to. He has found things and intends to follow them up. He expects it to take a while and it is not simply the finalize the investiogation of the Valerie Plame leak.

I think the White House should be afraid. It should be very afraid.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
There is no new Grand Jury and what Fitzpatrick said was boilerplate for "we are still accepting new information". I'm sorry you didn't find your pony in all this pile of horsecrap but you can hold out hope that something will present itself that didn't come to light over the past two years. Don't hold your breath.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
To me, the biggest story on the White House scandal

There's the first clue to why you don't know what's going on. It isn't a White House "scandal".
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
It just occurred to me...... this is your "drop back and punt" post, isn't it Rick? You had all your "Carl Rove indicted" posts already laid out and ready and can't use them....

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Rick Zimmer
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JBryan
Oct 28 2005, 09:24 PM
There is no new Grand Jury and what Fitzpatrick said was boilerplate for "we are still accepting new information".

Actually, he said the investigation was continuing and there may be new indictments. He did not limit his comments to some sort of passive we are accepting new information, as if all he intends to do is wait around to see if someone ends him a new email.

If he continues to investigate with the potential for new indictments, there will be a new grand jury, for it is through the grand jury that a Special Prosecutor investigates and indicts. If he were close to being done, he could have held the old grand jury over for a short while or simply said he was cleaning up some loose threads.

Minimize this if you wish. I think, though, if the White House has the same view as you, they are making a very big mistake.



[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
He said the work of this investigation is largely done but the investigation continues. Boilerplate for we will not turn down any new evidence that comes to light during the trial phase. He could renew the present Grand Jury for another twelve months just by filing a form and avoid having to bring a new Grand Jury up to speed with two years worth of work. Just keep stroking yourself. Maybe you can shoot out a new indictment.


"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Rick Zimmer
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JBryan
Oct 28 2005, 09:48 PM
He said the work of this investigation is largely done but the investigation continues. Boilerplate for we will not turn down any new evidence that comes to light during the trial phase. He could renew the present Grand Jury for another twelve months just by filing a form and avoid having to bring a new Grand Jury up to speed with two years worth of work. Just keep stroking yourself. Maybe you can shoot out a new indictment.

I'm just giving you my interpretation of the news of the day. You obviously have a different one.

I just think if he were done, he would be done.

The fact he isn't done tells me he has something he wants to look at, and his seemingly benign comments about "still receiving information" about the Valerie Plame affair simply tells me that he has set that one aside and his investigation is going in a different direction.

If you think a continuing investigation with possible new indictments is something the White House need not be concerned about, that's fine. I read it very differently. And I believe the fact he is continuing is a far bigger story than Libby's indictment.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
We shall see.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Steve Miller
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Larry
Oct 28 2005, 09:30 PM
It isn't a White House "scandal".

If it walks like a scandal and it quacks like a scandal...
Wag more
Bark less
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
he could have had its term extended


Quote:
 
He could renew the present Grand Jury for another twelve months just by filing a form and avoid having to bring a new Grand Jury up to speed with two years worth of work.


You're both wrong. Fitzgerald said quite clearly at the press conference that, under the law, he did not have the option of extending the grand jury's term any further. Here's what Fitzgerald himself said about extending the grand jury:

Quote:
 
This grand jury's term has expired by statute; it could not be extended.


Moreover, Fitzgerald was quite clear that absolutely nothing should be read into the fact that the investigation is not finished. Here's what he said:

Quote:
 
OK, is the investigation finished? It's not over, but I'll tell you this: Very rarely do you bring a charge in a case that's going to be tried and would you ever end a grand jury investigation.

I can tell you, the substantial bulk of the work in this investigation is concluded.


The Post says that Rove was going to be indicted, but that he provided new evidence this week that gave Fitzgerald pause ... I can't imagine what that could have been, but clearly we cannot conclude at this point that Rove will be indicted.

Oh, and to the idiotic notion that it isn't a White House scandal ... Scooter was an aide to the President in addition to his positions with Cheney. From Fitzgerald's news conference yesterday:

Quote:
 
Mr. Libby is the vice president's chief of staff. He's also an assistant to the president and an assistant to the vice president for national security affairs.


And from NBC's Tim Russert:

Quote:
 
This is significant, it's the first time in 130 years a White House official has been indicted.


That's just the facts, ma'am.

It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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Finally
QuirtEvans
Oct 29 2005, 06:29 AM
And from NBC's Tim Russert: 

Quote:
 
This is significant, it's the first time in 130 years a White House official has been indicted.


That's just the facts, ma'am.

Not quite:

Remember Henry Cisneros - a CABINET Member?
Mike Espy - a CABINET Member?

Both under Clinton.

Of course, there's Spiro Agnew - don't know if he was indicted, but he resigned because of corruption.
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Cisneros and Espy were not White House officials. Cabinet-level secretaries are not White House officials. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is not a White House official. The Chairman of the Federal Reserve is not a White House official. Someone who accepts an appointment as an assistant to the President is a White House official.

Russert was right. You are wrong.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
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ummmm yummy, and it even glows in the dark....
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Nina
Senior Carp
I think Scooter's will be the only indictments unless something huge blows up. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they found more stuff and convened a new grand jury.

I'd give it better than even odds, if I had to predict. I just don't see this going away any time soon.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
QuirtEvans
Oct 29 2005, 06:29 AM
Quote:
 
he could have had its term extended


Quote:
 
He could renew the present Grand Jury for another twelve months just by filing a form and avoid having to bring a new Grand Jury up to speed with two years worth of work.


You're both wrong. Fitzgerald said quite clearly at the press conference that, under the law, he did not have the option of extending the grand jury's term any further. Here's what Fitzgerald himself said about extending the grand jury:

Quote:
 
This grand jury's term has expired by statute; it could not be extended.



Actually, at the time he said this it was correct. However, at any time before the grand jury's term had expired yesterday he could heve easily had it's term extended by simply filing a form.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
As usual, Rick is letting his liberal-colored glasses get in the way of the truth.

The biggest story is most certainly not the indictment. The indictment is predicated on Obstruction of Justice and Perjury, the former which Clinton was probably guilty of, and the latter of which he was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt - he just wasn't indicted.

No, the biggest story is that a pretty straight arrow of a tough federal prosecutor investigated this stuff for two years, and could find no evidence of the possible crime that enpaneled the grand jury! Could this be because Ms. Vanity Fair was not a covert officer, as has been relentlessly portrayed in the media?

If Scooter lied, then he deserves what he gets. But in the final analysis, unless this thing widens out considerably (which I seriously doubt), the American public could care less...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
Actually, at the time he said this it was correct. However, at any time before the grand jury's term had expired yesterday he could heve easily had it's term extended by simply filing a form.


From what I understand, JB, that is incorrect. As I understand it, the grand jury's term had already been extended once, and it was contrary to statute to do so again.

And by the way, Jolly, as you well know, we've all been saying for a very long time that the statute sets a very high standard, and therefore that it was highly unlikely that the prosecutor was going to be able to make a case on the charge of outing a covert operative.

No one ever said that he found NO evidence of a crime (except you, just now). Fitzgerald didn't find sufficient evidence to charge that crime. I'm confident he found some, but not all, elements of the crime. And since you need all elements of the crime to prove the crime, he couldn't charge. But please don't say he found NO evidence of the crime, you know better.

All that said, if Scooter was so proud of what he did, why did he lie about it? If he thought that there was no disgrace in peppering reporters with Ms. Plame's name, why not just say that he did it, instead of lying and telling the grand jury that he got the name from reporters, instead of the other way around? Could he possibly be embarrassed that he gave the name of a CIA operative to the press? Could it be that, even if it wasn't a crime, it was still morally wrong, and ol' Scooter knew it, and didn't want to own up to it?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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QuirtEvans
Oct 29 2005, 08:00 AM
Someone who accepts an appointment as an assistant to the President is a White House official. 


Article II Section II of the US Constitution

He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate,shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for , .....


So, Cabinet officials, though appointed, because they are not employed by the White House, are not "White House Officials?"

Fair enough.

However, my point is broader - that the Clinton administration was no stranger to scandal. As I said, pot, meet kettle.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
If that's your point, it's correct. But, as you say, they were not White House officials.

Here's an interesting stat. The percentage of people giving Bush a positive job approval rating, right now, is more than 30 percentage points lower than the number of people who gave Clinton a positive approval rating before and after his impeachment. It's around 20 points lower than the number of people who gave Reagan a positive job approval rating in the midst of Iran/Contra. And it's only about 5 percentage points higher than NIXON's job approval rating just before he resigned.

Here's how bad it is, according to an unnamed senior Bush adviser talking to the WSJ:

Quote:
 
"Swing voters are gone for the moment," says a senior Bush adviser. "If I were [Mr. Bush] I would get on a plane and spend the rest of the year doing photo ops with foreign leaders."
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Nope, mostly what I know is that I've heard all manner of neutered roosters trying to crow for weeks about Rove's indictment.

It didn't happen.

And if Scooter would have had the sense to pull a Hilary Clinton, and said "I don't recall" he would not have been indicted. The attorney who helped draft the initial legislation is on record that Ms. Plame does not fit the definition of covert operative.

As for Bush's approval ratings...no President does well in the second term. And I suspect that if gas goes below $2/gallon, his numbers will be fairly decent. After the Iraqi Consitutional election they rebounded quite nicely, so there is quite a bit of fluidity out there...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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George K
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Finally
Jolly
Oct 29 2005, 02:30 PM
I suspect that if gas goes below $2/gallon....

Yah, whatever happened to

NO BLOOD FOR OIL! ?

That's why we went to war in Iraq, right?

:rolleyes2:
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Rick Zimmer
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Jolly
Oct 29 2005, 11:20 AM
As usual, Rick is letting his liberal-colored glasses get in the way of the truth.

The biggest story is most certainly not the indictment. The indictment is predicated on Obstruction of Justice and Perjury, the former which Clinton was probably guilty of, and the latter of which he was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt - he just wasn't indicted.

No, the biggest story is that a pretty straight arrow of a tough federal prosecutor investigated this stuff for two years, and could find no evidence of the possible crime that enpaneled the grand jury! Could this be because Ms. Vanity Fair was not a covert officer, as has been relentlessly portrayed in the media?

If Scooter lied, then he deserves what he gets. But in the final analysis, unless this thing widens out considerably (which I seriously doubt), the American public could care less...

Based on this line of reasoning, the leaders of organized crime who are charged only with income tax evasion never committed any other crime.

Anyone who knows anything about criminal prosecution knows that a prosecutor will go for what he is most convinced he can prove beyiond a reasonable doubt, not with what he knows actually happened but may not be able to put on a case which reaches that level of proof.

Interestngly, the more sober GOP analyses coming out today and likely in the days to come are speaking of the continuing vulnerability of the White House and the recognition that this is not over yet by a long shot and may be veering into other areas. They are speaking not only of Rove's legal vulnerability, but also Cheney's and some have even begun to speculate this may reach Bush himself.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
QuirtEvans
Oct 29 2005, 11:57 AM
Quote:
 
Actually, at the time he said this it was correct. However, at any time before the grand jury's term had expired yesterday he could heve easily had it's term extended by simply filing a form.


From what I understand, JB, that is incorrect. As I understand it, the grand jury's term had already been extended once, and it was contrary to statute to do so again.

Quirt,

It is my understanding that the law makes the first extention basically pro forma. If a second is requested, the Presiding Judge needs to undertake a more formal process before authorizing it; but he can authorize it.

If Fitzgerald were close to being done and was just cleaning up loose ends, he could have gotten that second extension for a few months.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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As for Bush's approval ratings...no President does well in the second term.


Based on actual numbers, Jolly, you are quite wrong.

During their second terms, the positive approval ratings for Clinton and Reagan never fell below 50%.

Right now, Bush's positive approval rating is approximately 18 percentage points lower than the lowest Clinton's ever was during his second term, and approximately 18 percentage points lower than the lowest Reagan's ever was during Reagan's second term.

In fact, Clinton's public approval never dipped below 65% all during the period of the impeachment proceedings, and for the remainder of his term thereafter remained over 60%, except for one brief period of a few months when it dipped to about 58%.

In fact, there has never been a point during Bush's second term (admittedly, less than a year so far) when his positive approval rating has been as high as the LOWEST positive approval Clinton or Reagan got during their entire second terms.

Bush's public approval right now is a lot lower than Nixon's was during October 1973, when the energy crisis was ongoing, and is within 3-4 percentage points of Nixon's worst approval ratings, which came right before he resigned.

If you're interested in the actual numbers, there's a chart showing the approval ratings for all four (Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, and W) during the entire period of their second terms in the weekend WSJ.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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