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THe Indictments come!; yay!
Topic Started: Oct 28 2005, 09:41 AM (968 Views)
Jeffrey
Senior Carp
apple: "the damage has been done.. to all of us, and particularly people like you jon, who have allowed yourself to manipulated by political operatives; their clever language deceiving you into believing that your core values, concerns are different from those Americans who are in the opposite political camp.. who now believe the political damage is good for the country and is of 'no cost'... who talk and think in soundbites and advertising copy.

1/2 of America is probably so simplistic"

Do you really believe this, or are you just trying to stir things up? What you say makes no sense to me. The people manipulated are those who still believe what this incompetent Alice-in-Wonderland administration says. Given that Bush must be president for a couple of more years, and given how delusionally incompetent his is, the weaker he is, the better for the country.
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Nina
Senior Carp
apple
Oct 28 2005, 06:28 PM


the damage has been done.. to all of us, and particularly people like you jon, who have allowed yourself to manipulated by political operatives; their clever language deceiving you into believing that your core values, concerns are different from those Americans who are in the opposite political camp.. who now believe the political damage is good for the country and is of 'no cost'... who talk and think in soundbites and advertising copy.

1/2 of America is probably so simplistic [/QUOTE]
Who died and made you queen?

That's one for the "most condescending post" files.
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apple
one of the angels
Nina
Oct 28 2005, 08:52 PM
apple,Oct 28 2005
06:28 PM


the damage has been done.. to all of us, and particularly people like you jon, who have allowed yourself to manipulated by political operatives; their clever language deceiving you into believing that your core values, concerns are different from those Americans who are in the opposite political camp.. who now believe the political damage is good for the country and is of 'no cost'... who talk and think in soundbites and advertising copy.

1/2 of America is probably so simplistic

Who died and made you queen?

That's one for the "most condescending post" files. [/QUOTE]
imperious... well... queen apple.. (or maybe I'm SnowBlack)

the right is at fault too - they are misled, manipulated, campified, and prone to stupification as well. sorry to imply otherwise...
it behooves me to behold
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Do you really believe this, or are you just trying to stir things up? What you say makes no sense to me. The people manipulated are those who still believe what this incompetent Alice-in-Wonderland administration says. Given that Bush must be president for a couple of more years, and given how delusionally incompetent his is, the weaker he is, the better for the country.


Of course it makes no sense to you. And the rest of your idiotic statement shows why you would *never* be able to make any sense of it. "Incompetent Alice-in-Wonderland administration"....... good grief, what a mentally constipated statement.

The delusional incompetency is coming from your direction, Ace. There are lots of issues where I find fault with Bush - incompetence isn't one of them. One major fault I have with the Bush administration is that they don't have the guts to hold a press conference and tell you and the political hacks who tell you how to think to shut up, sit down, and quit getting in the way.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Personally I find this whole finger-pointing exercise depressing. Everybody knows that US intelligence screwed up over the WMD, just as they did over underestimating the threat pre-9/11 under both Bush and Clinton. But lets face it, if intelligence was easy, they wouldn't call it intelligence. Claiming that it was all lies and hinting at 'a vast right-wing conspiracy'(tm) is assinine.

The glee that both sides seem to take in pointing out the failings of the other, over and above any other issue just leads to a waste of time, money and opportunity to actually solve some of the problems. If all we're interested in is proving that the other side is wrong, then fine, but even if we win, nothing gets achieved.

The thought that we have another 4 years of legal hearings and that it won't cost America, and the West in general dear, is also unrealistic. It's just as cynical an attitude as the countless millions of dollars wasted trying to impeach and remove Clinton.

I'm off to bed.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
kenny
Oct 28 2005, 07:27 PM
JBryan
Oct 28 2005, 02:57 PM
What was the lie?

WMD
Iraq involved in 9-11.

Once again, what was the lie.

If Bush was lying about WMD then so were most of the world's intelligence agencies, members of Congress and a former president. The best information anyone had indicated that Saddam had WMD and yet Bush is the liar? Show me some evidence that he knew this was not true.

Your reference to 9-11 just puzzles me because no one in the Bush Administration ever claimed that Saddam was involved with that although there is evidence to suggest he might have been.

Again, what was the lie. I get tired of hearing this repeated as though it is self-evidently true and does not even require a credible example. Bush lying to get us into Iraq may be an article of faith to you but I don't belong to your faith. I require proof.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Everybody knows that US intelligence screwed up over the WMD,

Well no, everbody does *not* "know" that. What we *do* know is that practically every intelligence agency in the world agreed he had them, if for no other reason but that he had used them. We know that given all the intelligence from around the world agreeing he had them that had we not taken Saddam out and he had actually used them again, we'd now be listening to how Bush screwed up by not taking out an obvious threat.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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apple
one of the angels
well he doesn't have them now.. does he? - wonder where they r?
it behooves me to behold
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The 89th Key
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Kenny (and others), you don't know what a lie is if you think Bush lied.

The UN, the USA, russia, italy, germany, france, china, iran, the UK (M6), etc...ALL held the same position that Saddam had WMDs. He's used them, he claims to still have some...and the US had the balls to do something about it.

Whether you like it or not, we had to go into Iraq sometime. 12 years and 17 UN resolutions later...
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Bush did the right thing whether Saddam had WMD or not. Our best information said he had them. The UN said he had them when their inspectors left in 1998. There was no reason to believe that he destroyed them since then absent any sort of pressure from inspections. He was given an ultimatum, prove you don't have them or we will come and make certain. He declined to do so and we made certain. That is why Bush has my support. He did not take that risk with our national security of letting Saddam play one corrupt government off against another, buying time to acquire whatever he wanted. If anyone seriously believes we had him "in check" I have three words for you: Oil For Food.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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greg
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Middle Aged Carp
JBryan
Oct 28 2005, 10:16 PM


Your reference to 9-11 just puzzles me because no one in the Bush Administration ever claimed that Saddam was involved with that although there is evidence to suggest he might have been.

Maybe not explicitly but they certainly tried their damndest to plant that notion in the American subconsious. In September 2003, Cheney said Iraq under Saddam had been "the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11." Talk about sneaky! The worst part is that it worked.
"What do you think it is, stupid? It's a string for my lute."
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Oh, come on. Either they said Saddam was involved or they did not. All this jedi mind trick stuff is just bull****.

"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
The worst part is that it worked.

Of course, the satellite images of the 3 Al Qaeda training camps in Iraq, one complete with a 727 used to train terrorists on how to take over a commerical airliner didn't mean anything, huh?

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
I don't think Bush and co lied. Exaggerated, perhaps, but it was not a known fact that there were no WMD. The bigger issue is Bush's sheer incompetence in executing his plan. No plan for a terrorist guerilla war, no realistic assessment of how the Shiites would behave. Just mind boggling naivite.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Your naivete is even more striking when it comes to warfare. You might want to read up on the history of some of the wars we won and see how well initial planning held up to first contact with the enemy. You are taking one of the more successful campaigns we have undertaken and reducing it to your board room logic. Naive.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
You are taking one of the more successful campaigns we have undertaken and reducing it to your board room logic. Naive.

Well said.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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apple
one of the angels
well the media is boardrooming in their articulation
it behooves me to behold
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
Larry
Oct 28 2005, 07:42 PM
The worst part is that it worked.

Of course, the satellite images of the 3 Al Qaeda training camps in Iraq, one complete with a 727 used to train terrorists on how to take over a commerical airliner didn't mean anything, huh?

Yup - it worked.
Wag more
Bark less
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
ivorythumper
Oct 28 2005, 08:52 PM
Jon:

How you can conclude that this can be done at no cost to the country is beyond me.

However, I appreciate the candor of your machiavellianism -- I am glad to know that for you it has nothing to do with justice, accuracy, truth, fairness, a man's good reputation, or any lofty ideal that has made America great.

I think it is utterly vicious of you -- that you would do anything to damage the office of the President. As a fellow American I find your position on this to be reprehensible.

But thank you for having the honesty to admit that, in effect, it is out of spite that you think this is a good thing.

Not at all.

When I said 'no cost to the country' I wasn't talking about the money being spent on an investigation - on a $2T budget it is truly irrelevant.

I said 'no cost' because I don't particularly think that leaking Valerie Plame's name (if that's he did) had a material impact on our national security. I wasn't expecting the republicans to disagree so much with that sentiment.

Regarding damaging Bush (from the standpoint of domestic politics), I believe that is of benefit to the country, since the stronger he is politically the more likely he is to push through programs that are (in my opinion, which I realize you don't share) detrimental to the country.

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
apple
Oct 28 2005, 09:28 PM

1/2 of America is probably so simplistic



I'd say its well north of 50%.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Quote:
 
When I said 'no cost to the country' I wasn't talking about the money being spent on an investigation - on a $2T budget it is truly irrelevant.


I'd say the real cost is in time and prestige of the US. The time that could be spent by a lot of highly skilled people in doing other things.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
John - The less time Bush has to do anything the better. His "solutions" are to make the US a bankrupt theocratic tin-pot dictatorship.
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
JBryan - Please articulate the successes that you think we have had in Iraq. What strategic US goals have been achieved? Defeating an irrelavant and demoralized Iraqi Army? Lowering world oil prices? Reducing the number of trained Al Qaida terrorists in the world? Reducing the geopolitical influence of Iran? Knocking over some third world thug is nice and all, but there are many thugs in the world, and this is not by itself a vital US interest.

Everyone knows by now that Bush went in with a "war lite" and no game plan for afterwards, because he was deluded into thinking he would be welcomed there. I did not say the war was immoral, I said Bush was naive and incompetent and has harmed rather than helped US strategic interests around the world. By the way, only about 30% of your fellow citizens think anything different. You can keep retailing stories about how aliens spaceships took the real WMD to Mars, the fact is Bush went in without full examination of the facts and no game plan for what goals he could actually achieve.
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Phlebas
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Bull-Carp
In thinking back to the Clinton administration (Ken Starr) the more things change, the more they stay the same. That includes the application of a double standard by both sides.

Fitzgerald seems to be a little less partisan than Starr was, though.
The only good that could come out of this would be if Bush actually cleaned house, and staffed the White House with people who are interested in addressing the problems of the country, instead of the yes-man smear artists in there now. Too much to hope for because Bush would just screw that up too.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Jeffrey
Oct 29 2005, 06:43 AM
JBryan - Please articulate the successes that you think we have had in Iraq. What strategic US goals have been achieved? Defeating an irrelavant and demoralized Iraqi Army? Lowering world oil prices? Reducing the number of trained Al Qaida terrorists in the world? Reducing the geopolitical influence of Iran? Knocking over some third world thug is nice and all, but there are many thugs in the world, and this is not by itself a vital US interest.


You sure can fill the air with red herrings. We went to war with Iraq to ensure that Saddam, his money, training and WMD expertise (or, possibly, stores) would never get together with Al Qaeda or any similar network. That has been achieved. Of course, Iraq has to become a functional member of the world community for there to be any long term security benefits. They are, so far, on track with that.

Quote:
 
Everyone knows by now that Bush went in with a "war lite" and no game plan for afterwards, because he was deluded into thinking he would be welcomed there.  I did not say the war was immoral, I said Bush was naive and incompetent and has harmed rather than helped US strategic interests around the world.  By the way, only about 30% of your fellow citizens think anything different.  You can keep retailing stories about how aliens spaceships took the real WMD to Mars, the fact is Bush went in without full examination of the facts and no game plan for what goals he could actually achieve.


You keep insisting that there was no "game plan". Do you really think that war is a "game" in which every move can be neatly mapped out in advance? Believe me, there were planners in the Pentagon who foresaw a situation very much like what happened and they planned for it. However, the enemy makes plans as well and also adapts to ours. Sometimes even the best military planners are caught by surprise by the enemies tactics even if the strategy was basically sound. That is the nature of war but I have told you all this before and I really don't expect you will get it this time and fully expect you to ask this same tired (red herring laced) question again.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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