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Question for Blacks; ...also known as 'African Americans'.
Topic Started: Aug 9 2005, 05:14 AM (5,163 Views)
NAK-1.0
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LD:

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If the question had been phrased in lots of other ways, I would have gladly read and joined into the discussion, but ti wasn't and blockhead just dug himself deeper.


If you recall, immediate shock due to the apparent offensive thread topic was present from the start. No matter how the thread was started, a discussion on the racist nature of the thread would have been included. That's how things run around here sometimes. A few people like Dwain addressed the actual topic, ignored the movie quote, and didn't find the topic to be racist. Some people, including you, did.

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And 89th, axe and wif are prevalent in white kids, too. Just because you don't notice it is not an excuse, it just shows that you pay less attention to the speach habits of your own race than you do others. That is a small little danger flag. I don't believe you are a supremacist or a bigot, but you need to be a little careful. Remember something, I live in the same area as you do, your experience with african americans from "the street" is very limited in this area. Don't get me wrong, there are african americans in your community, but not street. As a matter of fact, most africans in this area are actually africans and at most have only been in the US for 1-2 generations.


No, white kids do not say 'wiff' and 'aks' around here. Maybe in other parts of the country where I haven't visited, but around here in Northern Virginia...white kids do not say such things. I would know, and no offense, probably a little better than you...being their age and everything. Like I said before, I'm not going preface my question for white kids as well, when 99 out of 100 of the kids saying "aks" are black.

I went to the most diverse high school in the nation, and lived within the beltway for 21+ years. I can say with very much certainty that black kids are the ones who say "aks" just as white kids are the ones who dress in goth clothing. Those aren't racist observations.


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Amanda
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This is like picking a scab, but here goes.

89th, here's a question for you. An important one - maybe the main point around here.

WHY DO THE EXACT WORDS "wif" and "aks" bother you so much?

Is it not possible that mispronunciations more characteristic of other sub-cultures or ethnic groups, exist for precisely the same reasons? (Tossing out a few hypotheses off the top of my head - any one of which would suffice as an explanation. Not an exhaustive list).

Lemme see...lack of live standard English role models, simple habit, deliberate mispronunciation - to relax or fit in (i.e. some people can and do, switch in and out of dialect), no one having bothered to correct them - whoops, rephrase - no one in the right position to correct them having done sp (thereby excluding a citizen's arrest by a stander-by social grammarian with an attitude*), lack of awareness that it's worthwhile to present oneself - in general - using standard English, lack of incentive (can include the very commodity of "hope") to fit in with the dominant culture...Sometimes people CAN fear the loss of fitting in where they came from, flaws and all. "Homies" says a lot about the whole notion of family and culture of origin - any origin.

Now, what's your apparent fixation specifically about forms of non-standard English as spoken by Blacks? This FYI is what's giving folks around here the feeling that you're a racist. That plus your "attitude" - that they aren't "warranted" in using their "incorrect" usage. True - IMO - the ability to use language correctly (and in a standard way) acts as an entree tol aceptance by the larger society which can, in combination with other advantages - be very beneficial for the "bilingual" person. More beneficial than not.

But do you think that merely informing these poor slobs (whose discrepant pronunciation so jars your sensibilities), that they are WAY wrong) is going to change their lives? Is pleasing you, supposed to be such a motivator? Or for that matter, emulating you? It's possible that much as they'd rather have the laissez-passer your white skin and up-bringing have afforded you, that they'd elect NOT to trade places if it goes along with turning into a sanctimonious pasty-faced prig? One either incapable of empathy for them - or else (worse, in a way) pretending not to feel it, in order to give lessons to a different set of people (us) to whom you recounted your mind-boggling encounter. And why? Not because you really don't understand, but because in a fit of boredom, you chose to stir things up by asking a rhetorical question, in order (yes, this is my assumption) to show us all what phony PC hypocrites we are.

Neither one of which makes you into Mr. desirable Role Model for your would-be students - them or us.

OK (taking deep breaths and belatedly counting backwards from a hundred)...If you want to convince me I'm wrong, you tell me. WHY did you ask your " question"? And why - if at all - does this WIF-AKS usage have any greater meaning from any other pronunciation differing from standard Amurrican? (And BTW - in case it was in the back of your mind - We really don't, in this context, need to go into the differences between black African immigration to this country as compared to any other racial. national or ethnic group).

Finally joining the lemmings...

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We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
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"Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005
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jodi
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You know, I listened to George Bush give a speech today in Illinois - he said "gotta" at least 6 times instead of "got to".

:) Jodi
:) Jodi
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FrankM
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All I can say is that, with all the work hours being diverted in these many threads to remedial education of 89th, I’ve decided to withdraw all my money from the stock market and put it in gold bullion.
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jodi
Aug 10 2005, 02:54 PM
You know, I listened to George Bush give a speech today in Illinois - he said "gotta" at least 6 times instead of "got to".

:) Jodi

Combining words is fine. I bet you're already familiar with that though. :)
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Amanda thanks for taking the time to write that long post. I'll do my best to answer your questions:

Quote:
 
WHY DO THE EXACT WORDS "wif" and "aks" bother you so much?


They don't really bother me as much as make me wonder why they would say those words that way. I even have a black co-worker I sit with at meetings and she says "aks" instead of ask. There's a difference between combining words such as "gonna" and mixing letters around such as "aks". I'm not picking on blacks, as I would ask the exact same question of my own race if I heard my white friends saying "Isaac, let me aks you something." No doubt there...

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Now, what's your apparent fixation specifically about forms of non-standard English as spoken by Blacks?


It's sort of the rectangle/square thing, where a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't a square. What I'm trying to say is that I'm not looking at blacks and picking out words they say, rather I'm picking out words I hear, and then analyzing them. In my short 23 years I've been on this Earth, I honestly can not remember the last time I heard someone say "aks" who wasn't black. Perhaps that makes me racist? I don't think so, I think it just means I'm not a well-traveled person. I have lived in this area my whole life and quite honestly I bet every single person my age that you would survey around here would agree with me, that "aks" is 99% of the time said by young black people.

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WHY did you ask your " question"? And why - if at all - does this WIF-AKS usage have any greater meaning from any other pronunciation differing from standard Amurrican?


I asked my question because I've heard it for years and thought it would be a discussion regarding the pronunciations that vary between cultures. I don't think it has any greater meaning per se, rather that it's clearly the best example of ethnic differences in pronunciations, as limited as they may be to the mid atlantic or wherever.

Does that help a little bit? :)

As you can tell, it's really hard to discuss this topic without bordering on racial generalizations, meant with no malicious intent whatsoever.
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Amanda
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Amanda thanks for taking the time to write that long post. I'll do my best to answer your questions:

You are most welcome. Might as well face it. Picking scabs has a certain appeal. I guess we must enjoy it. Sort of.

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I asked my question because I've heard it for years and thought it would be a discussion regarding the pronunciations that vary between cultures. I don't think it has any greater meaning per se, rather that it's clearly the best example of ethnic differences in pronunciations, as limited as they may be to the mid atlantic or wherever.

Great. In that case, please figure that my paragraph above begining "lemme see" (haha) is your answer. Now kindly go and regeneralize your original question to where it belonged (according to you too") - namely, ALL such dialectic mis-pronunciations.

But IF that doesn't do it for you (if and only if) , then you might as well start calling yourself a racist and be done with it. You know, the old quacks like one, walks like one bit. And in Internet parlance - a trollish one as well.

(* You put the examples into the context of set theory, plain and simple).
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We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
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"Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005
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I thought it would be more advantageous for us to discuss a specific example of ethnic pronunciations, as compared to a general (and boring) thread regarding the status of the English language, most likely based lightly on various longitudinal studies.
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Nina
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Hey, 89th, why don't you ask your black co-worker why?

Be sure to frame the question exactly as you did here... you know, the part about how we all have the same mouths and lips, but black people still can't pronounce words properly.

Throw in the Korean part, too.

Let us know how it goes. .. I'm guessing: :veryangry:
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tcmod
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Nina
Aug 10 2005, 12:22 PM
Hey, 89th, why don't you ask your black co-worker why?

Be sure to frame the question exactly as you did here... you know, the part about how we all have the same mouths and lips, but black people still can't pronounce words properly.

Throw in the Korean part, too.

Let us know how it goes. .. I'm guessing: :veryangry:

then ask him about his penis and see if that one is true as well :wacko:
Dead girls don't say no, but you still have to buy them flowers
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The co-worker is a girl, so that second question might be a little odd. :P

And I would ask her the first question, but I'm not good enough friends with her yet. I said early on that I would ask this question or would quote that FMJ quote to my ethnic friends in a heartbeat. I'm playing poker tonight, if one of my black friends is there, I'll ask him, and I'll report back in the morning. Cool?
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kenny
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jodi
Aug 10 2005, 10:54 AM
You know, I listened to George Bush give a speech today in Illinois - he said "gotta" at least 6 times instead of "got to".

:) Jodi

But he's not black.
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Dewey
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jodi
Aug 10 2005, 10:54 AM
You know, I listened to George Bush give a speech today in Illinois - he said "gotta" at least 6 times instead of "got to".

:) Jodi

It's funny that you mentioned this, jodi. I was running an errand a little earlier, and I heard a clip of GWB on the radio. I thought of this thread. I honestly believe that no small part of many people's disdain for the man is simply that they don't like the nasal twang in his voice, and the "cowboy" dialect/accent that he often slips into. Since they don't speak that way themselves, they view his style of speech - and by extension, his intelligence level - to be inferior to their own. In short, they're engaging in the same sort of value judgment that 89th (and most other people as well) is engaging in, based on one's use of language compared against the laguage's norms.

Which brings us back around to a point I made way early in this thread: it goes much better for anyone - black, white, Bostonian, Pittsburgher, Louisianan, or Texan - to be able to at least speak English using accepted rules of grammar and pronunciation as much as possible, when dealing with the general public. That's why I chided people for playing the race game so quickly - at its essence, this phenomenon is NOT a racial issue.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

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But he's not black.


Or gay. ;)

BTW, I like your sig line Kenny. I agree (for the most part). You know I couldn't agree with you completely, being that our social responsibility is to keep hell from freezing over. :lol2:
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Dewey
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"... Lemme see...lack of live standard English role models,..."

Amanda, please, give me a break. At this moment, we are living in the most homogenized time of our country's entire history, thanks to mass media and other factors, most all of which uses standardized English and proper grammar and pronunciation. If that isn't enough, how about schoolteachers? I could list others, but it isn't necessary to make the point that everyone - everyone - in this country has ample access to learning correct English. To say otherwise is bending over backwards to make excuses for those who choose not to do so.

"...simple habit, deliberate mispronunciation - to relax or fit in (i.e. some people can and do, switch in and out of dialect), ..."

Those are certainly true, and understandable. When I was growing up, I did the same thing, too - I knew how to speak properly, but deliberately used slang, mispronounced words, and spoke my local accent so I'd fit in and wouldn't sound like some egghead. It's natural, and there's nothign wrong with it - as long as the person doing it understands that there are many places in the world where speaking in that manner is neither expected nor acceptable.

"...lack of awareness that it's worthwhile to present oneself - in general - using standard English, lack of incentive (can include the very commodity of "hope") to fit in with the dominant culture..."

That's RIGHT!!! IMO, you've just nailed the heart of the problem. There is a lack of awareness that a person has to present one's self well in order to advance, achieve, and do well in life. And it does absolutely NOTHING to dissuade this problem to justify speaking improperly as simply a cultural phenomenon, or heaven forbid, an equally acceptable form of English; and castigating anyone who would try to correct people speaking improperly (or for merely saying that it's improper at all).

"...It's possible that much as they'd rather have the laissez-passer your white skin and up-bringing have afforded you, that they'd elect NOT to trade places if it goes along with turning into a sanctimonious pasty-faced prig?"

See, here's where the problem begins. When people point out the problem, the problem isn't discussed. The people proposing the discussion are hit with nasty - and frankly, itself racist, ad hominems like "sanctimonious pasty-faced prig."

The assumption is that the person raising the issue is doing so to belittle someone, or to make a point indicating racial inferiority. In fact, it may well be, but it isn't necessarily the case. It may be equally probable that the person pointing out the problem actually wants to help people who are stuck in multi-generational hopelessness, locked into a cycle of failure, lack of opportunity, and cynicism, due not to any real racial inferiority or innate lack of intelligence, but rather, due to artificial, pseudo-cultural issues that hobble their advancement. This problem is enhanced by the pseudo-cultural opinion that becoming successful in America means selling out to the "white" culture. Nonsense; the dominant culture in America isn't "white" culture; it's "successful" culture. It's being enjoyed mostly by whites because there are simply more whites than anyone else, but it's also being enjoyed by Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, and many others, who have merely learned the tools to achieve. And as I said earlier, the problem is further enhanced by those who continue to excuse away and rationalize the problem of speaking poorly in public. To my mind, people who do that are doing a shameful disservice to people who need real, meaningful help - not patronizing, paternalistic, feel-good BS. Sometimes the most compassionate thing that a person can do for someone else is not a pat on the head, but a kick in the butt.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dwain, ever thought of writing a book or two? Not only are your ideas right on, but they are written with great order and clarity.
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Dewey
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I got about a half of one wrote, but I got so busy wif other things I had to put it on hold. Maybe now that you aksed about it, I'll start writin' agin.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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What was it on?

Sorry, babelfish doesn't have an English-to-Ebonics option. :lol:
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Dewey
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A collection of short stories, many about growing up in my quirky home town, my quirky family and friends, life's tough times, life's good times - all but a couple of the ones written so far were first written as posts in RMMP or the Coffee Room. Sometimes I forget it's been a long time since I posted any stories, and there are lots of people here who never saw any of them.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Be careful about anyone pulling up one of your old stories and reposting it. Derick reposted my story about the little girl and the Pearl River baby grand and Kathyk and Pique jumped in to tell me what a pathetic self aggrandizing egotistical display of self promotion it was.......

and you know how smart *they* are.......

:baby:
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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JBryan
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Larry, you flogging that "little girl and the Pearl River grand" story again. :tongue:
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Yep...... I thought about billboards, but they cost too much....... ;)

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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sarah_blueparrot
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Aug 10 2005, 10:58 AM
jodi
Aug 10 2005, 02:54 PM
You know, I listened to George Bush give a speech today in Illinois - he said "gotta" at least 6 times instead of "got to". 

:) Jodi

Combining words is fine. I bet you're already familiar with that though. :)

"You're" is an acceptable word according to the OED. "Gotta" is pure laziness.

I think the question should be, "Why are people so lazy with regards to their speech?" (I'm thinking of "defantly", "probaly/probly", "gonna" and "gotta" right now).
Death is simply a shedding of the physical body like the butterfly shedding its cocoon. It is a transition to a higher state of consciousness where you continue to perceive, to understand, to laugh, and to be able to grow.

- Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross
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Also a valid question.

I would assume it's in relation to the speed of life. Everything is abbreviated now-a-days, requiring only minimal effort for communication. People could have entire conversations in "lazy" speak.

OK, gtg, tty on wed, cya l8r.

Haha, "on" was the only word that was complete! :P
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