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Question for Blacks; ...also known as 'African Americans'.
Topic Started: Aug 9 2005, 05:14 AM (5,166 Views)
Ballyhoo
Middle Aged Carp
89th, I think you should remove your use of the word "gook", for your own sake and for the sake of jgoo's board. The mere use of the word "gook" is offensive to many people, not to the same extent that "nigger" is offensive (in my opinion), but in a similar way.

What you said was not a quote from a movie, but a joke you made by reversing quote from a movie (as you said). I know you didn't mean to offend anyone, but if someone new to this board saw what you wrote, they could easily get the wrong idea. Using the word "gook" will make people think you're racist.

About your original question, white people say "wiff" for "with" too, especially in some parts of England. They also say "fanks" for "thanks", and things like "an 'olidee" instead of "a holiday". There are lots of other examples.
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Dewey
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Svolich, Ubliudok, and Mudak? Those were three guys from my home town.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

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greg
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Dwain Lee
Aug 9 2005, 04:52 PM
Hmm.

89th messed up big time with the context of his FMJ quote. Kid, you're on your own on that one.


But let's go back to his first question, about the use of mispronounced words by many in the black community.

I don't think that the question was meant to say "Let's make fun of the niggers." (And for Pete's sake, let's stop being such babies. If you can't even type that word in the context of a discussion, but you think it's somehow better to type a bunch of asterisks, then grow up. When you read those punctuation marks, you know what you hear in your head, so whether you type it fully or not, you've said the same word. Have the balls to type what you're saying, and the brain to understand that just typing the word, or even saying it in such a context, does not make one a racist any more than my typing that I recognize that there's a derogatory word out there spelled "Dago" makes me prejudiced against Italians.)  :rolleyes2:

The question was about the undeniable commonality of the misuse of the English language this way. This isn't about a regional dialect that might adjust the phonetic sound of a particular letter, it's a complete replacement of the sound with the sound of other letters, or the transposition of sounds within the word. It's just poor use of the English language.

And frankly, it didn't even start out being a "black thing." These two examples that 89th gave actually originated in lower classes in lily-white England, and migrated to the US through them. Their use was relatively common in the early South; in fact, when I was a kid, I knew a white man from North Carolina that used the same expressions all the time, and I'm sure many still do.

I understand that these words are used very commonly within black American culture. I don't care; they're still wrong. And if that offends someone, that's their problem, not mine. I'm not gong to call a dog a cat, just to avoid offending someone.

I grew up in a distinct culture too, that had many of its own local bastardizations of the English language. I employed them liberally when I was a kid, and when around them now, occasionally still do. But I don't speak like that here, or in the business world, or in general public, even when I'm in that location where I grew up.

I don't, because I know that while those words might be fun to joke about, they're simply bad English. And if I expect anyone to fully and correctly understand me, and to respect my intelligence, I understand that it's probably counterproductive to engage in speech patterns that make me sound stupider than I probably am, and that any second-grader has been taught is incorrect.

I don't care if it's commonplace in the black community to say "aks" or "wiff," any more than I care that people from Pittsburgh commonly say "yunz." They're both poor use of English, and as just one example, I would never hire a person that uses any of those expressions on the job, representing me and my firm. In the last fiteen years, I've employed around twenty different people. Four of them have been black. None of them spoke "ebonics" in a public setting. No future black employees ever will. Period.

I also think it's just a reverse form of bigotry to support or defend when some blacks continue to use poor English. It implies that blacks are somehow too stupid to be expected to speak well, so rather than point out its incorrectness, we should celebrate its diversity. And even if the reverse bigotry is only apparent and not real, defending the ongoing use of poor language skills only serves to enable a part of black culture that works to keep them at lower rungs of the economic ladder. There is no reason - not a lack of innate intelligence, nor a lack of adequate educational opportunity, nor even cultural sensitivity - to justify or encourage poor language skills when interacting with the general public.

I dont' care how widespread it may be. I don't care how much it might be identified as part of a subculture. It's still wrong, and counterproductive to the individual. I'm part of several "subcultures" myself, with distinct vocabularies. But I know I'm first a part of the overarching, general culture, and I'm expected to speak and write in general usage in accordance with that culture. If I don't, then shame on me, and shame on anyone who tells me it's OK to hurt myself by doing so.

I notice quite a few people jumped on 89th for raising the point. He didn't say anything more, or worse, than Bill Cosby has said about common black American culture - quite the contrary, Cosby has been even more pointed, and so have many others, in an effort to help those in that culture.

Why then, is 89th automatically considered a racist for raising the point, but Bill Cosby isn't? Because Cosby is black, and therefore, must not hate blacks; but 89th, being white, couldn't possibly make such an observation without a racist intent? Please. to be honest, whether 89th - or Cosby, for that matter - are racist or not isn't even relevant to the base issue. Racism becomes a straw man (forgive me, Jeffrey) to beat up, to avoid discussing the real issue at hand.

You, 89th, and Bill Cosby are all wrong, at least in saying that "aks" or "wiff" is bad English. A dialect can't be "bad" so long as it serves its purpose, which is to allow its speakers to communicate with other speakers of the same dialect. I expect your idea of "good" English is Standard American English, which is itself a dialect, albeit a rare one; it can be heard on the nightly news and almost nowhere else.

This idea that certain dialects are poor or inferior stems not from a judgement about the dialect itself, but about its speakers. Groups low on the socioeconomic spectrum speak a certain way; groups at the other end speak a different way. On linguistic grounds, neither is better. Our preferences are shaped by our perceptions of the speakers.
"What do you think it is, stupid? It's a string for my lute."
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
The whole point of this whole damn thread was to evoke this kind of response so that he could be titillated by it. Look at the title of the thread. The question could have been written as "why do young urban african americans.....", "why do people (in general).......", you get the gist. Instead, this thread read to me as an attempt at a humorous insult towards a particular minority group, that he thought he could get away with.

And our response has given him everything he could have wanted.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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dolmansaxlil
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Quote:
 
I expect your idea of "correct" English is Standard American English, which is itself a dialect, albeit a rare one; it can be heard on the nightly news and almost nowhere else.


Well, not NOWHERE else. Ever wonder why so many broadcasters are Canadian? ;)

Not that we don't have our own distinct dialects. I have a couple of friends from Newfoundland, and when I first met them (they came to Toronto for university) it was like speaking to someone for whom English was a very recent aquisition (ugh - with the time it took me to figure out THAT spelling, people will think I'm new to the language as well). But it's not that their English was BAD - it's just the way the people from that particular area have been speaking for an awfully long time, and it differs from how I grew up speaking it.

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Amanda
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Senior Carp
Luke's Dad
Aug 9 2005, 08:08 PM
The whole point of this whole damn thread was to evoke this kind of response so that he could be titillated by it. Look at the title of the thread. The question could have been written as "why do young urban african americans.....", "why do people (in general).......", you get the gist. Instead, this thread read to me as an attempt at a humorous insult towards a particular minority group, that he thought he could get away with.

And our response has given him everything he could have wanted.

Possiblyy so, LD. I read it more as a tilting at windmills thing designed to stimulate a flamboyant debate about PC "hypocrisy". Besides, I guess the gay issue's done to death for now. :sad:

This remark kind of stuck in my craw though.
Quote:
 
quite frankly there's nothing left really to say on the issue, except that maybe JB accepts my apology. Not that I really care...
[size=5]
We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
[/size]

"Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
The 89th Key
Aug 9 2005, 06:14 AM
I don't get it. We all have the same mouth, biological structure and speak the same language, yet I'm standing in line today and I hear this black girl say "wiff" instead of "with", and "aks" instead of "ask". :confused:

I can understand if you come from Korea and can't pronounce an "s" at the end of "dollars" or some other plural word, I understand and have seen that...but I don't understand why blacks actually say those words differently. I mean, we all have accents and variations of words, but not entirely different spellings of the word when pronounced phonetically.

This is coming from a white guy.

...also known as 'European Americans'.

I think a word we all pronounce properly is "bigot."
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I'm with LD...
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
Mikhailoh
Aug 9 2005, 05:51 PM
I'm with LD...

You usually are. :biggrin:
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
I mean, we all have accents and variations of words, but not entirely different spellings of the word when pronounced phonetically.


Someone better go and add all the missing "r"s to Boston dictionaries then. Obviously Mirriam Webster has been shipping faulty product to that area for decades.
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Fizzygirl
Fulla-Carp
89 I find your racial remarks disgusting and extremely offensive. I haven't seen a bigger bigot since Archie Bunker.
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big al
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Bull-Carp
I've watched this thread grow like topsy all day. I guess I'll throw in my two cents worth.

1. In the original post, 89th described how someone else was talking. It's not at all clear from the context that they were talking to him. In fact, it sounds like he was evesdropping.

2. In Dwain's first post, he aluded to different norms of speech in different circumstances. If the girl in question was talking to a peer in language common to that peer group, then I don't have a problem with it. Most of us, particularly when young, had slang,grammer, etc. that was intended to associate us with a group of peers and set us off from others.

3. It is possible, although it seems unlikely, that 89th was simply naive in his question. Perhaps he has led an unusually sheltered existence to date. I had an incident in college where I used a ethnic slur that I was unacquainted with because I had a friend of that ethnic derivation who used it in jest and I repeated the comment to someone else. I got a very quick lesson in why I shouldn't be using that word.

In the end, I'm sorry that you don't understand the lesson that Nina and others have tried to convey, 89th. Even if a statement is factually true, there still is no compulsion to make it if it will be hurtful. It is possible to discuss ideas and concepts without throwing around words that are the equivalent of verbal hand grenades.

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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Fizzygirl
Fulla-Carp
Extremely well put Al (as always!) :thumb:
Cats are intended to teach us that not everything in nature has a purpose. ~ Garrison Keillor


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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
This reminds me of something a friend of mine did in a grade 8 classroom (an idea I've stolen for my own bag of tricks).

My friend is gay, and a public school teacher. He obviously doesn't advertise, but he's not closeted either. He was supply teaching in a grade 8 room, and had been there for a couple weeks. Nothing's changed since I went to school, apparently :rolleyes: and calling someone "gay" or a "fag" as an insult is still pretty popular. During class, one of the kids said to another "You're such a fag!"

My friend had been listening to this all week, and finally had enough.

He dropped the book he had been holding on the floor, went and sat down on top of a kid's desk (an empty desk) and started rhyming off every slur about gays he's ever heard. There are quite a few of them. The kids sat there, stunned, as my friend said "Fag, queer, homo, limp wristed, faggot, lesbo" etc etc etc on down the list. Then he moved on to slurs about the mentally retarded (also a big insult line with kids).

After he got through his list, he gave them a talk about why these words shouldn't be used as insults. "One of the things I've found about this class is that the students are concerned that everyone feels safe and welcome. Is that true?" Lots of nodding. "What if there is someone in this class who is gay? What if their brother or sister or another loved one is gay? Do you think they feel safe and welcome when they hear that?"

He lectured for about 5 minutes - never raising his voice, not angry, just explaining. A couple of the kids (including the boy who said it) were in tears. Hopefully, it was a lesson well learned, and perhaps one that some people never got.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
greg
Aug 9 2005, 04:04 PM
You, 89th, and Bill Cosby are all wrong, at least in saying that "aks" or "wiff" is bad English. A dialect can't be "bad" so long as it serves its purpose, which is to allow its speakers to communicate with other speakers of the same dialect. I expect your idea of "good" English is Standard American English, which is itself a dialect, albeit a rare one; it can be heard on the nightly news and almost nowhere else.

This idea that certain dialects are poor or inferior stems not from a judgement about the dialect itself, but about its speakers. Groups low on the socioeconomic spectrum speak a certain way; groups at the other end speak a different way. On linguistic grounds, neither is better. Our preferences are shaped by our perceptions of the speakers.

That's absolute nonsense. There are rules of grammar, pronunciation and usage in English, as in every other language. There are dialects and variations in every language, but they are flavoringings and variations of actual standards that are set, and taught, as the correct usage. If your statements were correct, then there would be absolutely no reason to teach English in our schools - we could all just speak the way we wanted to; no one's speech would be considered "better" or more proper. You may buy that, but I don't. Based on that argument, all I'd have to do is start pronouncing the letter K as "Three," and it would be just as valid as the sound that it has been attributed to that letter throughout time just because I chose to use it, and after a week or so, everyone hearing me would understand me, knowing that that was the way I pronounced the letter K.

No, there are standards, in language, in culture, in life. Adhering more closely to those standards is "better," and adhering less so to them is "worse." Denying that, supposedly in an attempt to help people by sheltering them from the reality and consequences of such valuations, has caused those people immense harm by allowing them to live lives of delusion. This is a fact that extends far beyond the specific issue being raised in this thread.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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The 89th Key
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Ballyhoo
Aug 9 2005, 07:28 PM
89th, I think you should remove your use of the word "gook", for your own sake and for the sake of jgoo's board. The mere use of the word "gook" is offensive to many people, not to the same extent that "nigger" is offensive (in my opinion), but in a similar way.

What you said was not a quote from a movie, but a joke you made by reversing quote from a movie (as you said). I know you didn't mean to offend anyone, but if someone new to this board saw what you wrote, they could easily get the wrong idea. Using the word "gook" will make people think you're racist.

About your original question, white people say "wiff" for "with" too, especially in some parts of England. They also say "fanks" for "thanks", and things like "an 'olidee" instead of "a holiday". There are lots of other examples.

Thanks for your thoughts ballyhoo, but I'm not going to remove it.

In fact, the word "gook" has now appeared more from others saying it, than my original post. Many times over. Same thing goes for "nigger". These words have been used many times in the past and a few times in this thread. Removing it would do nothing. I'll only remove it if jgoo or justme asks me to, I'll respect those rules. However, such a request will not be taken lightly and I caution those moderators strongly before even considering such an option, as I'm sure they already have. I think I am WELL within the boundaries of this forum's rules.

Secondly, you might be right regarding others saying "wiff" and "aks".

Perhaps it's just my age range, or my region, but I quite honestly can not remember the last time someone said wiff or aks, who wasn't black. Not being racist, but something this morning clicked and I wanted to hear the thoughts of the CR on the issue.

Believe it or not a few relevant posts have made it out alive from this jungle of a thread, including yours. :)
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
89th,

Yes, people have posted the words "gook" and "nigger" in this thread - in context of the discussion, to make valid arguments.

It's the difference between reading a class "To Kill a Mockingbird" and referring to the black teacher down the hall jokingly as a nigger.
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The 89th Key
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Luke's Dad
Aug 9 2005, 08:08 PM
The whole point of this whole damn thread was to evoke this kind of response so that he could be titillated by it. Look at the title of the thread. The question could have been written as "why do young urban african americans.....", "why do people (in general).......", you get the gist. Instead, this thread read to me as an attempt at a humorous insult towards a particular minority group, that he thought he could get away with.

And our response has given him everything he could have wanted.

I think it's obvious the subject line of this thread was meant to poke fun at the politically correct term of African Americans. The thread, itself, was honest.

Perhaps it would be best just to call everyone a Pangean? :P

...although I'm sure Jesse Jackson would somehow protest that as well. :rolleyes:
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apple
one of the angels
so WTF are you trying to prove?
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The 89th Key
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Amanda
Aug 9 2005, 08:21 PM
Besides, I guess the gay issue's done to death for now. :sad:

I'm always ready for a new trial!! :thumb:

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The 89th Key
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Rick Zimmer
Aug 9 2005, 09:50 PM
I think a word we all pronounce properly is "bigot."

Probably because we all are bigots, technically.

But if you want, I'll let you try and explain how I'm a bigot and you're not.

Shrubbery? :yes:
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The 89th Key
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Fizzygirl
Aug 9 2005, 10:08 PM
89 I find your racial remarks disgusting and extremely offensive. I haven't seen a bigger bigot since Archie Bunker.

For example...? :confused:
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Nina
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The 89th Key
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big al
Aug 9 2005, 10:11 PM
I've watched this thread grow like topsy all day. I guess I'll throw in my two cents worth.

1. In the original post, 89th described how someone else was talking. It's not at all clear from the context that they were talking to him. In fact, it sounds like he was evesdropping.

2. In Dwain's first post, he aluded to different norms of speech in different circumstances. If the girl in question was talking to a peer in language common to that peer group, then I don't have a problem with it. Most of us, particularly when young, had slang,grammer, etc. that was intended to associate us with a group of peers and set us off from others.

3. It is possible, although it seems unlikely, that 89th was simply naive in his question. Perhaps he has led an unusually sheltered existence to date. I had an incident in college where I used a ethnic slur that I was unacquainted with because I had a friend of that ethnic derivation who used it in jest and I repeated the comment to someone else. I got a very quick lesson in why I shouldn't be using that word.

In the end, I'm sorry that you don't understand the lesson that Nina and others have tried to convey, 89th. Even if a statement is factually true, there still is no compulsion to make it if it will be hurtful. It is possible to discuss ideas and concepts without throwing around words that are the equivalent of verbal hand grenades.

Big Al

The two girls were in line in front of me, talking to each other and the cashier. I don't remember who she said "aks" and "wiff" to, but it just caught my attention.

My question wasn't from a naive standpoint. A few posts have actually addressed the issue, but the majority haven't focused on anything but personally attacking me.

The question was asked with sincerity. No, I didn't know some people in England also said "aks" and "wiff" instead of ask and with. Perhaps that was the crux of the problem, but my question was asked with sincerity as it's boggled my mind forever. I can understand it's a cultural thing, but that doesn't warrant such a blatantly incorrect pronunciation of ask and with.
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
Nina
Aug 9 2005, 11:09 PM
Posted Image

*snicker
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