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Question for Blacks; ...also known as 'African Americans'.
Topic Started: Aug 9 2005, 05:14 AM (5,167 Views)
Amanda
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Senior Carp
Hey, it's OK. I have a couple of friends who are dumb as nails bigots. -_-
[size=5]
We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
[/size]

"Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
Amanda
Aug 9 2005, 04:34 PM
Hey, it's OK. I have a couple of friends who are dumb as nails bigots. -_-

me too!
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
justme
Aug 9 2005, 04:43 PM
Amanda
Aug 9 2005, 04:34 PM
Hey, it's OK.  I have a couple of friends who are dumb as nails bigots.  -_-

me too!

Peggy, do you consider me a friend? :D
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justme
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TomK
Aug 9 2005, 04:45 PM

Peggy, do you consider me a friend? :D

SOMETIMES! :sombrero:
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Hmm.

89th messed up big time with the context of his FMJ quote. Kid, you're on your own on that one.


But let's go back to his first question, about the use of mispronounced words by many in the black community.

I don't think that the question was meant to say "Let's make fun of the niggers." (And for Pete's sake, let's stop being such babies. If you can't even type that word in the context of a discussion, but you think it's somehow better to type a bunch of asterisks, then grow up. When you read those punctuation marks, you know what you hear in your head, so whether you type it fully or not, you've said the same word. Have the balls to type what you're saying, and the brain to understand that just typing the word, or even saying it in such a context, does not make one a racist any more than my typing that I recognize that there's a derogatory word out there spelled "Dago" makes me prejudiced against Italians.) :rolleyes2:

The question was about the undeniable commonality of the misuse of the English language this way. This isn't about a regional dialect that might adjust the phonetic sound of a particular letter, it's a complete replacement of the sound with the sound of other letters, or the transposition of sounds within the word. It's just poor use of the English language.

And frankly, it didn't even start out being a "black thing." These two examples that 89th gave actually originated in lower classes in lily-white England, and migrated to the US through them. Their use was relatively common in the early South; in fact, when I was a kid, I knew a white man from North Carolina that used the same expressions all the time, and I'm sure many still do.

I understand that these words are used very commonly within black American culture. I don't care; they're still wrong. And if that offends someone, that's their problem, not mine. I'm not gong to call a dog a cat, just to avoid offending someone.

I grew up in a distinct culture too, that had many of its own local bastardizations of the English language. I employed them liberally when I was a kid, and when around them now, occasionally still do. But I don't speak like that here, or in the business world, or in general public, even when I'm in that location where I grew up.

I don't, because I know that while those words might be fun to joke about, they're simply bad English. And if I expect anyone to fully and correctly understand me, and to respect my intelligence, I understand that it's probably counterproductive to engage in speech patterns that make me sound stupider than I probably am, and that any second-grader has been taught is incorrect.

I don't care if it's commonplace in the black community to say "aks" or "wiff," any more than I care that people from Pittsburgh commonly say "yunz." They're both poor use of English, and as just one example, I would never hire a person that uses any of those expressions on the job, representing me and my firm. In the last fiteen years, I've employed around twenty different people. Four of them have been black. None of them spoke "ebonics" in a public setting. No future black employees ever will. Period.

I also think it's just a reverse form of bigotry to support or defend when some blacks continue to use poor English. It implies that blacks are somehow too stupid to be expected to speak well, so rather than point out its incorrectness, we should celebrate its diversity. And even if the reverse bigotry is only apparent and not real, defending the ongoing use of poor language skills only serves to enable a part of black culture that works to keep them at lower rungs of the economic ladder. There is no reason - not a lack of innate intelligence, nor a lack of adequate educational opportunity, nor even cultural sensitivity - to justify or encourage poor language skills when interacting with the general public.

I dont' care how widespread it may be. I don't care how much it might be identified as part of a subculture. It's still wrong, and counterproductive to the individual. I'm part of several "subcultures" myself, with distinct vocabularies. But I know I'm first a part of the overarching, general culture, and I'm expected to speak and write in general usage in accordance with that culture. If I don't, then shame on me, and shame on anyone who tells me it's OK to hurt myself by doing so.

I notice quite a few people jumped on 89th for raising the point. He didn't say anything more, or worse, than Bill Cosby has said about common black American culture - quite the contrary, Cosby has been even more pointed, and so have many others, in an effort to help those in that culture.

Why then, is 89th automatically considered a racist for raising the point, but Bill Cosby isn't? Because Cosby is black, and therefore, must not hate blacks; but 89th, being white, couldn't possibly make such an observation without a racist intent? Please. to be honest, whether 89th - or Cosby, for that matter - are racist or not isn't even relevant to the base issue. Racism becomes a straw man (forgive me, Jeffrey) to beat up, to avoid discussing the real issue at hand.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I believe 89th's question was "why do they speak this way" not "is it okay". My response was directed to that question. In answer to the second question I agree with you, Dwain. Unfortunately, when there are white people who think it is cool to mimic these mannerisms it bocomes a toss up which way the common language actually goes.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Nina
Senior Carp
The 89th Key
Aug 9 2005, 12:57 PM

If I incorrectly said a word, I would expect someone to tell me and I would change. Period.

89th, just think of this as an accelerated learning course. We're skipping the individual word and moving directly to entire sentences.

Pay attention and keep up.

Here's the next lesson:

"I'm sorry that I offended him" and "I'm sorry that he was offended by me" DO NOT mean the exact same thing!

There are two conjoint clauses in the first sentence:
1) "I am sorry"
2) "I offended him"

The "sorry" belongs to the "I" dependent clause.

In the second sentence, there are also two conjoint clauses, but they are:
1) "I am"
2) "sorry he was offended"

The "sorry" belongs to the second dependent clause.

Perhaps it would make more sense in a different sentence:

"I am sorry I killed him"
vs
"I am sorry he was killed"

PS: I've removed the "that's" from your sentences because, frankly, it's just crappy extraneous verbiage.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
JBryan
Aug 9 2005, 01:00 PM
I believe 89th's question was "why do they speak this way" not "is it okay". My response was directed to that question. In answer to the second question I agree with you, Dwain. Unfortunately, when there are white people who think it is cool to mimic these mannerisms it bocomes a toss up which way the common language actually goes.

I understand your differentiation, JB. As for non-blacks who want to emulate the improper usage, I could argue that it's because we've allowed the usage to be defined as a cultural element that deserves gorification and emulation, out of our fear to combat it and call it wrong, and something that we should all (black or white) try to educate ourselves out of.

This leads to an interesting scenario: if I don't hire a technically qualified white job applicant who used "ebonics" all through his job interview, but end up hiring an equally qualified black applicant who used proper English, woud I be considered racist? Waiting for the Supreme Court case on that one. :rolleyes2:
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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FrankM
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good points, Dwain. But maybe you should start a new thread on this. It's likely to get lost in this thread.
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The 89th Key
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JBryan
Aug 9 2005, 04:19 PM
The 89th Key
Aug 9 2005, 02:53 PM
JBryan
Aug 9 2005, 03:42 PM
Quote:
 
JBryan
Aug 9 2005, 03:33 PM
Quote:
 
That's what I've been saying this whole time! :confused:


I was going to let this go but that was not what you were saying the whole time.

Yes it was, referring to "I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I didn't mean it the way some took it, but I can see how it could be taken wrong.", that Larry said.

I apologized if you were offended. Check.

I didn't mean it the way you took it. Check.

Since I apologized for the way you took it, I obviously can see how it could have been taken wrong. Check.

Yep...it is what I've been saying this whole time.


You seem to have deleted that part of my post that contradicts what you are saying.

The part I omitted was:

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Let me put it to you nice and sparkling clear (avatar reference), my wife is Chinese, her family is my family and I have many friends who are from that part of the world so, while I am not Asian, I am offended by your choice of movie dialog to quote out of context. Leave it up if you want but that is my final word on the matter.


I have many, many asian friends as well. They would understand that it's a movie quote.

I wasn't insulting any asians at all, it was a movie quote.

If you don't care if it's left up, then I'll leave it up. No problem.


What's that have to do with when I apologized?!?

Nothing. It has a lot to do with your statement, "that's what I was saying the whole time". I have never seen anyone do a buck and wing quite like you.

Obviously it wasn't literally what I've been saying the whole time, but regarding the subject (making an apology), it's what I've been saying the whole time.
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The 89th Key
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TomK
Aug 9 2005, 04:26 PM
jon-nyc
Aug 9 2005, 03:57 PM
89th - another piece of advice.

When someone accuses you of being insensitive to a particular group, resist the urge to say "but some of my best friends are..."

jon's right 89th. You need to NAME the friends. After I say something about gays I alway say, "and kenny and Bernard are my best friends." That lends credability to your statements.

And BTW: when it comes to Jews, bach-O-phile is a brother to me.

You need to be more friendly. :D

Touche! :doh:
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The 89th Key
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Nina
Aug 9 2005, 05:08 PM
Perhaps it would make more sense in a different sentence:

"I am sorry I killed him"
vs
"I am sorry he was killed"

You forgot to put "by me" at the end of that second sentence.

I am sorry I killed him.

vs

I am sorry he was killed by me.

Same thing!! (IMO, of course)

I said I was sorry he was offended BY ME.
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The 89th Key
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Oh, and good post Dwain.

While addressing the ebonics situation, of course you articulated it perfectly.

Regarding the FMJ quote, I think that situation is over anyway. Some are offended by movie quotes, and some aren't. I've already apologized to JB, he said he wasn't really mad, and quite frankly there's nothing left really to say on the issue, except that maybe JB accepts my apology. Not that I really care...
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
89th, listen to Nina's grammar lesson. Don't apologize like a politician; when there's reason to apologize, do it like a mensch.


And yes, I think there's reason.


"I did (something wrong). I'm sorry for doing it, and that my doing it hurt you."
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Phlebas
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Bull-Carp
Hey 89th,

I think I found another one of your baby pictures:

Posted Image
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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The 89th Key
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Quote:
 
89th, listen to Nina's grammar lesson. Don't apologize like a politician; when there's reason to apologize, do it like a mensch.


And yes, I think there's reason.


"I did (something wrong). I'm sorry for doing it, and that my doing it hurt you."


I don't think I did something wrong, though. I've said many times I'm sorry if JB was offended by my post.

But I don't think I did something wrong, any more than when I say homosexuality is sinful, IMO.

Both statements will be offensive, and I'm sorry if people are offended, but I'm not sorry I made the post.

So how should I handle that?

I'm leaving, gotta go to FedEx before it closes.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Dwain,

Using the asterisks is meant to convey a feeling about the word. There's nothing babyish about it, it is commonly used on this forum. If you disagree with doing so that is fine, don't do so. But please refrain from the use of terms like babies and balls when it comes to me.

My contention is that 89th, a well educated and spoken young man, knows perfectly well both that some African Americans speak this way and that it is no more unusual than any other slang or modification of words by a given population. To express it as some unusual phenomenon that just can't be understood seems to me to be much the same as if he had asked why that particular group likes watermelon and fried chicken.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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jodi
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Fulla-Carp
Posted Image

:) Jodi
my artlog ~ todayatmydesk.weebly.com
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xenon
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Senior Carp
If a movie character uses a racist quote, that movie character is racist. It doesn't make the movie racist. If a person who watches that movies then turns around and uses that racist statement, he deserves to be characterized the same way as the movie character.
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tcmod
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Senior Carp
This thread reminds me of how angry I got with an old girlfriend when she hurt my feelings. She didn't understand that "I am sorry I hurt your feelings" and "I am sorry your feelings are hurt" are not the same thing. Stupid b***h (for Dwain)
Dead girls don't say no, but you still have to buy them flowers
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Aug 9 2005, 01:40 PM
Dwain,

Using the asterisks is meant to convey a feeling about the word.  There's nothing babyish about it, it is commonly used on this forum.  If you disagree with doing so that is fine, don't do so.  But please refrain from the use of terms like babies and balls when it comes to me. 

My contention is that 89th, a well educated and spoken young man, knows perfectly well both that some African Americans speak this way and that it is no more unusual than any other slang or modification of words by a given population.  To express it as some unusual phenomenon that just can't be understood seems to me to be much the same as if he had  asked why that particular group likes watermelon and fried chicken.

Mikhailoh, you're right, my words came down too heavily on you specifically. I'm sorry.

I really didn't mean them personally toward you, even though your words were the catalyst for mine. The whole issue of allowing ourselves, as a society, to be so cowed by a word - any word - that we feel we have to tapdance around it even when speaking abstractly about it, is something that drives me absolutely bonkers. It's been a pet peeve of mine for a long time; my rant just caught you in the crosshairs.

It is an ugly word. It hurts just to hear it; I know. But the word does exist, and we can't pretend it doesn't. To me, doing "the asterisk thing" (and I admit, I've done it too) just seems to add to the culture of denying that certain realities exist - whether the reality is a word, or a counterproductive aspect of a subculture.

To me, if the word is being used in an abstract or referential manner, and not being directed toward someone as a pejorative, then we should all be mature enough to see the word in print, or hear it, without our eyes or eardrums melting. And if the context of using the word is different - if it is being used in an inciteful way, or being directed in a pejorative sense, then it's no less harmful or ugly whether it's fully spelled out, or full of punctuation marks.

Once, my pastor delivered a sermon, during which he examined the term "Goddamned." He used the word several times in the sermon. In the sense that he was using the word to teach and explain its impropriety, as well as teaching broader spiritual issues, the word was not offensive. It was just a word; a group of letters strung together that had no inherent magical or mystical power. If, on the other hand, he used the exact same word gratuitously as just another expletive, he'd have probably been chased out of the pulpit. To me, it's the same thing here. Does that make sense?
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
tcmod
Aug 9 2005, 01:51 PM
Stupid b***h (for Dwain)

Well **** you anyway.

:D
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Sho nuff, podner. Jes' aim that thing a little higher next time.

Or I'll have to beat you wiff an aks.

:sombrero:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Amanda
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Senior Carp
tcmod:
Quote:
 
She didn't understand that "I am sorry I hurt your feelings" and "I am sorry your feelings are hurt" are not the same thing

Well, sure. The second is practically an understood preface to "...you hypersensitive SOB". :mad2:
[size=5]
We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
[/size]

"Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Dwain Lee
Aug 9 2005, 01:59 PM
Once, my pastor delivered a sermon, during which he examined the term "Goddamned." He used the word several times in the sermon. In the sense that he was using the word to teach and explain its impropriety, as well as teaching broader spiritual issues, the word was not offensive. It was just a word; a group of letters strung together that had no inherent magical or mystical power. If, on the other hand, he used the exact same word gratuitously as just another expletive, he'd have probably been chased out of the pulpit. To me, it's the same thing here. Does that make sense?

Depends on the language. In Russian the equivalent expression, chyort voz'mi (litrerally: The Devil take it) is a pretty mild expletive. I suspect the Orthodox tradition pretty much did away with any swearing against God and or the Church as we have in English or other Western European languages. When Russians and from what I can tell, other Slavs, want to swear, they rely on far more crude expressions that are derived from either Mongol or Tatar roots. In Russian therefore you find no fewer than four words for the English word *bastard*. The mildest (svolich')being derived from old Slavonic to the crudest (ubliudok or, stronger yet: mudak) coming from Turkic Mongol. Likewise a slavic cognate and crude swear word in Polish korva, meaning whore, is quite mild in Russian. In its place Russians would more likely employ the Tatar derivative sliukha to really get the point across.
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