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| American Atrocities - Nothing New | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 24 2005, 07:18 AM (443 Views) | |
| yhabpo | Jul 24 2005, 07:18 AM Post #1 |
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Junior Carp
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The revelations that US troops have tortured and murdered Iraqi prisoners has shocked and concerned many people around the world. However, the revelations really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. American atrocities started when the nation was first formed with the genocide against Native Americans and torture has been an integral but mostly secret part of US policy since the second world war. After the war the US protected the worst Nazis so that it could learn from them and adopt their torture techniques. After the CIA was officially formed it made torture part of its policy and exported its use around the world. In 1953 the CIA started Operation Phoenix, a program of torture and murder of civilians in Vietnam. Around the same time the US overthrew Iran's democratic government and put the Shah in power. The CIA created, trained and managed Iran's dreaded SAVAK secret police which tortured and murdered countless people. After the country of Chile dared to embrace democracy and elect a President not chosen by the US, the US was quick to install the brutal dictator Pinochet who tortured and murdered tens of thousands. CIA controlled death squads in Central America brutally tortured and murdered over 200,000 people during the 80's. Millions of others have been killed around the world as a direct result of US policy. Torture was widely taught in the US School of the Americas to people who came to be known as some of the world's most monstrous violators of human rights. Amnesty International cites the United States as the largest international supplier of electro-shock weapons to governments that practice electro-shock torture. $3 million worth of electro-shock devices were sold to Saudi Arabia in 1990. However, it is not only the CIA & military that has been guilty of conducting torture. The Chicago police department used brutal torture techniques against non-white prisoners up until the mid 80's. Throughout the US prison system, torture and rape are routine. In fact, the situation has been so bad that in 2000 the UN delivered a severe public rebuke to the United States for its record on preventing torture and degrading punishment. Amnesty International has repeatedly denounced U.S. police forces for "a pattern of unchecked excessive force amounting to torture." The so-called 'War on Terror' is being used to create a culture of brutality from the highest level. Mass media has suggested that torture is necessary to protect American lives. The January 2001 cover of The Atlantic Monthly asked in large print, "MUST WE TORTURE?" Terrorism analyst Bruce Hoffman from Rand Corporation suggested that torture is necessary to protect American interests. It has been suggested by many Americans that torture be legalized. The reality is that torture is not a good method of extracting information. Information obtained under torture is not reliable and a person who is tortured will make up whatever information is wanted just to stop the torture. A skilled interrogator can get the information they need without torture. Even the CIA's own "Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual--1983:" says: "Intense pain is quite likely to produce false confessions, fabricated to avoid additional punishment. This results in a time-consuming delay while an investigation is conducted and the admissions are proven untrue. During this respite, the subject can pull himself together and may even use the time to devise a more complex confession that takes still longer to disprove." The advanced intelligence gathering technique of remote viewing can obtain information from a distance. This technique was used extensively to identify bombing targets in the first attack of Iraq and to probe the plans and intentions of Saddam Hussein in a daily basis. Non-harmful mind control techniques can also be used to extract information. From a technical aspect, torture is simply not necessary. The brutality against the Iraqis isn't even about extracting information, it is merely brutality for its own sake. The question is why does the US government allow and promote torture? Making Enemies Most people are peaceful and more concerned with their own well-being than with invading another country. Lacking any real enemies, American foreign policy has intentionally created enemies and conflict to support the defense industry and further the goals of the ruling elite for the last 50 years. Vietnam - The Vietnamese war was a good example of how the US creates enemies to further its own agenda. During WWII , Ho Chi Minh lead the resistant on behalf of the Allied Powers against the Japanese under an agreement that Vietnam be given its freedom from French domination after the war ended. Ho Chi Minh kept his side of the bargain and on August 17, 1945 he broadcast: "We were fighting Japs on the side of the United Nations. Now Japs Surrendered. We beg the United Nations to realize their solemn promise that all nationalities be given democracy and independence. If United Nations forget their solemn promise and don't give Indochina full independence, we will keep fighting until we get it." On September 2, 1945 a band marched through Hanoi playing the Star Spangled Banner. Ho Chi Minh declared Vietnamese Independence and began his speech with "All men are created equal." Yet, the dream of Vietnamese democracy was not to be. The country was divided and South Vietnam was given back to the French. The US betrayed the Vietnamese and supported French oppression. The US even offered the French atomic weapons to use against the Vietnamese, which the French fortunately declined. It was only after the betrayal by the US that Ho Chi Minh turned to Russia for the help needed to defeat the French and truly became 'communist'. The US had effectively turned an ally into an enemy and destroyed democracy in 'Indo China'. By 1954 the US was paying for 78% of the French war against the Vietnamese. After the French were defeated in May 1954 at Dien Bien Phu, the Geneva Accords temporarily divided Vietnam in half at the 17th parallel, with Ho Chi Minh's Vietminh ceded the North, and French puppet Bao Dai's regime granted the South. The accords also provided for elections to be held in all of Vietnam within two years to reunify the country. The US opposed the unifying elections, fearing a likely victory by Ho Chi Minh, and refused to sign the Geneva accords - further denying the Vietnamese the possibility of democracy. As the French left, the US stepped in to control the South. The CIA's Phoenix Operation began almost immediately after the US takeover in 1954. Under US management the South Vietnamese secret police dished out live burnings, garroting, rape, torture, sabotage - much of which was blamed on the Vietcong. Over 50,000 civilians were tortured and murdered at the hands of the CIA & military intelligence. In all, over a million Vietnamese were killed by US forces. The land mines, unexploded ordinance and death from chemical contamination have killed and crippled countless more. Richard Nixon admitted in his final days that he had escalated the war against Vietnam merely for the defense industry to sell more weapons. It was in the early days of the fighting in Vietnam that a Vietcong officer said to his American prisoner: "You were our heroes after the War. We read American books and saw American films, and a common phrase in those days was 'to be as rich and as wise as an American'. What happened?" Iraq - US involvement in Iraq goes back several decades and parallels British domination of the country early in the century. In 1958 the CIA hired Saddam Hussein to assassinate the President of Iraq - Abdel Karim Qassim. It wasn't until 1963 that Hussein and the US were successful in overthrowing the Iraqi government. In the process 5,000 were killed. Immediately after the coup Saddam rounded up and murdered another 800 people on a list prepared by the CIA of potentianl opponents. However, the new Ba'athist regime had little popular support and was replaced by rival army officers 9 months later. With more CIA help Saddam regained control and was kept in power until the US invaded Iraq in 2003. In his book "October Surprise", Gary Sick details how Bush-Reagan used arms and cash to bribe the Iranians to keep the American hostages until after the election to prevent Jimmy Carter from being re-elected 1980. The Iranians kept their part of the deal and the hostage's release was announced the day Reagan was sworn into office. The US continued to clandestinely supply Iran with weapons to help pay for its illegal war against democracy in Nicaragua in what came to be known as Iran-Contra. At the same time it supplied Iraq with its chemical and biological weapons to use against Iran. In 1986 Reagan sent Saddam a secret message telling him that he should step us his bombing of Iran. Iran is suing the US & Germany for supplying Iraq with the illegal chemical and bio weapons used against them in the CIA directed war of 1980-1988. Up until Iraq's US approved invasion of Kuwait, the US Department of Defense training manuals sang the praises of Saddam Hussein, noting how he had vastly improved education, medical care, and the standard of living of his people. His regime was called one of the most enlightened, progressive governments in the region. As Iraq massed it troops on the Kuwaiti border in preparation for invasion, the US watched on in complete silence. Ever loyal to US interests and his CIA handlers, Saddam invaded Kuwait to support the administration of George Bush and ensure support for long-term military bases in the Middle East. After killing 500,000 Iraqis, the US then setup Saddam's opponents so that Saddam could eliminate any active opposition to his brutal regime. To further the suffering of the Iraqi people and set them up for future events, the brutal and meaningless sanctions were imposed. At the International Court On Crimes Against Humanity, US, British and UN officials were charged with 'causing the deaths of more than 1,500,000 people including 750,000 children under five, and injury to the entire population of Iraq by genocidal sanctions.' While the Iraqis were suffering and dying for no good reason, Saddam lived in unimaginable luxury. The hatred of the Iraqi people towards the US, who put Saddam in power and kept him in power for over 25 years is only being deepened by US actions. There was never any intention of "winning Iraqi hearts and minds". The 'revelations' about the US torturing Iraqis is merely a way to fan the flames of hatred against Americans. "We have heard that a half million children have died," said "60 Minutes" reporter Lesley Stahl, speaking of US sanctions against Iraq. "I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And -- and you know, is the price worth it?" Her guest, in May 1996, U.N. Ambassador Madeleine Albright, responded: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think the price is worth it." Other countries - Throughout the world the US has overthrown democracies, installed dictators, setup brutal secret police and death squads, and created conflict where none existed. Anywhere true democracy might rear its ugly head, the US is there to quickly chop it off and put one of its brutal puppets in place. Wherever brutality and corruption exists the US is usually somewhere behind the scenes manipulating events. In the process, the US has caused unimaginable suffering and deprived the world of hope. The negative impact of US foreign policy is so great that the path of human evolution has been altered. The covert CIA coups and wars have deprived entire continents of the opportunity to climb out of poverty and eliminated generations of potential humane leaders. The environment is being destroyed with projects approved by US puppet governments with money loaned by the IMF and World Bank and then stolen by US Corporations, leaving the impoverished public to pay off the debt. Global warming is very real and causing billions in damage every year, yet the US continues to suppress alternative energy and worship the dark god of oil. The Great Lie I was raised to believe that America is the "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave". I was seriously misinformed. America truly is "the great satan". American mass media continues to project an image of the US as the "bastion of democracy" and "leader of the free world" - yet, few people other than Americans believe it any more. The Real Agenda Just as past American atrocities have created wars and conflicts, the current atrocities will result in more conflict, loss of life and environmental destruction. The preparations for the war against 'terrorism' have been going on for at least 20 years. In partnership with the Saudi ruling family, the global ruling elite has radicalized Islam through mind control facilities disguised as religious schools. In these schools they create the 'terrorists' needed for an enemy. Without the CIA, Saudi 'schools' and Israeli abuse of Palestinians there simply wouldn't be a threat from muslim 'terrorists'. If the US had not stolen democracy from so many countries in the first place, muslim fundamentalism wouldn't have grown to the level it is now. This time there is no adversary capable of standing up the US. The continued war will be one against freedom, democracy and life as the American military empire and its minions expand control gradually over more of the globe in the name of 'fighting terrorism' and the creation of a global corporate police state. Bill Phillips |
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| FrankM | Jul 24 2005, 08:28 AM Post #2 |
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Senior Carp
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What makes our country the greatest in the world is our form of Government. It has often been said that our form is a poor one, but the others are so much worse. At the same time, our people are, by nature, no better or worse than anyone else. We are a complex species, soaring to the heights in people like Mother Teresa, Albert Schweitzer, Mohandas Gandhi and the like, and to the depths in people like Hitler and whoever anyone might wish to add. There are many here who wish we Christians to be sensitive to their agenda while they show the usual insensitivity to ours. What yhabpo did was not attack one of our prophets. It attacked someOne infinitely more than a mere prophet. How many points they could have gained with we Christians if they had seen the difference and stepped in to condemn yhabpo’s post. Some were merely oblivious and others stepped in to lecture us that what yhabpo did was equivalent to what we do in our posts here. Despite that, I did the Christian thing and started a thread to deal with their area of sensitivity for one such group. I try to take the high road in life, although I am human and fail far too often. Now if anyone thinks I posted here to respond to yhabpo itself, they should declare themselves. I merely wish to see who is that stupid so I can ignore them from now on. |
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| Rick Zimmer | Jul 24 2005, 08:45 AM Post #3 |
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Fulla-Carp
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As someone said the last time we had the flap over yhabpo, he raises a viewpoint on many issues that many in the world hold about the developed countries, about Christians and about the US in particular. This article is one of those. Whether we agree with the article or not or any of yhabpo's comments and articles, it is important for Americans to know that these types of views are not isolated to one individual or even a few. They are held by many. The reasoning is not necessarily flawed so much as based on incomplete analysis. But then, much of American's view of others in the world is based on incomplete analysis. It may be hard as Americans to hear what many are saying about us. After 911 we wondered why people would attack us. Yhabpo is explaining it to us. Like it or not, this is how many see us and articles like this show the reasons they hold the opinion they hold. You are right, FrankM, that we should be rightfully proud of our system of government. But if we voters are to play an integral part (which we MUST do if the system is to work) we need to understand the world and the views of the world. Too often when it comes to foreign policy, we accept jingoism on the part of our leaders when we should be deciding with as full an understanding of the complexities of the world as possible. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| FrankM | Jul 24 2005, 09:28 AM Post #4 |
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Senior Carp
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RZ, I certainly don’t dispute your point. But if you read the applicable threads elsewhere closely, you’ll find that the realists here are highly conversant with history and are well aware of that. In my case, I’ve grabbed a number of recent books out of the library on the theme “why the East hates the West.” Found very little new on the subject. I make the assumption that people here are more than familiar with that subject, are now well beyond that and trying to find solutions given that common knowledge. See, to me, your advice, like that of the other individual (who you happen to be far smarter and wiser than), is patronizing. And please note that I in no way attempted to refute that we’ve done our share of evil in the world. That would be beyond absurd. At the same time, I find your flavor of Roman Catholicism very close to mine, so please don’t take that as an insult. You don’t know how much I value your presence here. |
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| JoeB | Jul 24 2005, 09:39 AM Post #5 |
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Senior Carp
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From: http://english.pravda.ru/mailbox/22/98/386...2_Phillips.html if anybody cares. |
| "There are many ingredients in the stew of annoyance." - Bucky Katt | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Jul 24 2005, 09:46 AM Post #6 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I don't take it as an insult at all. However where you and I will disagree is in that while there are some here who seem to be conversant on the things yhabpo posts about, there is a very vocal contingent who either do not know, not incorporate it into their world view or prefer to remain oblivious. A little education does not hurt anyone. It seems to me that the proper question for yhabpo on mosdt of his posts is: "Do you think this is the entire story?" |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Jul 24 2005, 09:47 AM Post #7 |
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Fulla-Carp
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yhabpo, do you think this is the entire story? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| FrankM | Jul 24 2005, 10:02 AM Post #8 |
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Senior Carp
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JoeB, as they say "very interesting." RZ, about the education thing, I agree. Maybe I am giving some too much credit. |
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| yhabpo | Jul 24 2005, 10:47 AM Post #9 |
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Junior Carp
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No, Rick. The damage that the US does to any culture that it touches is far worse of a crime than the atrocities committed by the US military. But that topic belongs to a new thread. |
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| FrankM | Jul 24 2005, 11:14 AM Post #10 |
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Senior Carp
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yhabpo, If you rephrase your post as the damage the US culture does to other cultures, then there is a basis for discussion. When cultures touch they invariably clash. Ideally what emerges is the best of both cultures, In practice, what invariably dominates is the culture with the stronger military. In any case, that is a fair basis for a fruitful discussion. It’s an awesome subject but it might be worth exploring. I’m not sure I have the energy and time for it. But others here might. In any case, try to choose your words so you’re focusing on the cultures, not the people themselves if you really want to have a constructive dialogue. |
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| JBryan | Jul 24 2005, 12:29 PM Post #11 |
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I am the grey one
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What makes you think he is interested in constructive dialog? |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| FrankM | Jul 24 2005, 12:47 PM Post #12 |
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Senior Carp
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JB, I try to not give up on someone ... consider it one of my weaknesses. |
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| JBryan | Jul 24 2005, 04:46 PM Post #13 |
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I am the grey one
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He would consider it a weakness long before I would. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Jul 24 2005, 06:11 PM Post #14 |
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Fulla-Carp
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To be honest, JBryan, I don't care if he wants constructive dialogue. This does not mean his posts cannot be used by others of us to have such a dialogue. There is a place for those who pose the hypothesis and a place for those who do something worthwhile with it. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Amanda | Jul 25 2005, 08:08 AM Post #15 |
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Senior Carp
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FrankM:
Frank, there are a lot of oblique references here (and later) to members who have apparently failed to meet some standards of yours and I guess, Rick's, - members unnamed, standards unnamed, blame apparent. I don't like veiled references, especially when they appear to be code for those here. Perhaps me. Perhaps Jews. Perhaps others. Certainly when you counterpoise yourself and displeasure as "Christians" being offended to "other groups" here , one thinks of Jews. This is all the more so, as the word "agenda" has been bandied about a good deal on this Forum lately, and I am one of those guilty. A dangerous buzzword, in retrospect. May I ask, that however much fun allegories, satire, parables and such are, that when you are intending to criticize member(s) of this forum that you do so frontally – at least to start - so they can reply? Particularly, instead of private conversations referring to groups and "an individual", all of which are left to the imagination. Leave imagination to the Arts. When criticism is intended, speak up clearly. Otherwise it can be - it is for me anyhow - disturbing. WERE you referring to Jews and an unspecified Jewish agenda here? Were any of your references to me in particular? If so, this doesn't seem to be an honorable way to go about discussion on a public forum. If you want to speak code, kindly do so in PMS. Incidentally, I gather you, Frank, are blaming "some" for not coming forward to criticize yhabpo in this post (paraphrase) "which would have meant so much". Is this correct? If so, it certainly seems unfair to be displeased with this silence since only twenty minutes elapsed between the time of his posting and your response. In fact, you must have begun writing immediately. [Edit: OK, a trivial little math error Make that an hour and twenty minutes! My point is nevertheless identical.]Furthermore, it's a complex article which takes a good while to read carefully. I myself have read it twice now and still feel I need time to think about some of the issues it raises - most of all how they are united intellectually, if at all. Also, to consider who, what known group, could possibly put together this collection of grievances. Seems strange in so many ways - though nonetheless undeniably thought-provoking . Yes, I do see it appeared in the English language edition of Pravda - whatever that is. Complete with ads for T-shirts! The PR weapon of the 21st century. Oh (Big) Brother! BTW I was off line all yesterday, and will remain off the remainder of today (except perhaps for a minute here or there… maybe) . So if I don’t reply for a while, please don’t read into it. |
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[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005 | |
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| Amanda | Jul 25 2005, 08:19 AM Post #16 |
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Senior Carp
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and yhabpo, This is a very interesting and very strange article. Many conspiracy theories (more along the alien abduction line) are only worth thinking about as curiosities rather than on thier own merits - part of understanding the human condition and aspects of the contemporary mindset. Here, some of the ideas are unique and shocking, but oddly thought-provoking. The linkage of ideas, is puzzling to me, though - logically and as I try to figure out WHO could put together these disparate notions. Who could reach these conclusions (if indeed, they are genuine)? And why? First, I want to ask you whether these thoughts agree with your own. If so, where and if not, where? It is very different to consider and possibly respond to, ideas in an article written by an unknown (probably psudonymous) author and one which represents the thinkihg of a member here. |
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[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005 | |
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Make that an hour and twenty minutes! My point is nevertheless identical.]
4:13 PM Jul 10