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| Riding the Gravy Train | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 23 2005, 07:05 AM (638 Views) | |
| TomK | Jul 23 2005, 07:05 AM Post #1 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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The top ten countries receiving American aid per capita.![]() It's obvious to me why I'm being attacked for my views. Follow the money. |
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| Mark | Jul 23 2005, 07:08 AM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Cut them all off! NOW!
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___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
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| NAK-1.0 | Jul 23 2005, 07:12 AM Post #3 |
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Senior Carp
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You mean his fingers? |
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| tcmod | Jul 23 2005, 07:13 AM Post #4 |
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Senior Carp
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I completely agree with you. let them all fend for their own and let's fix our own house. |
| Dead girls don't say no, but you still have to buy them flowers | |
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| bachophile | Jul 23 2005, 07:47 AM Post #5 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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acttually i also agree, we'd be better off without aid, but since u mentioned here are some items that may be informative... MYTH “The U.S. has always given Israel billions of dollars without expecting repayment.” FACT U.S. economic grants to Israel ended in 1959. U.S. aid to Israel from then until 1985 consisted largely of loans, which Israel repaid, and surplus commodities, which Israel bought. Israel began buying arms from the United States in 1962, but did not receive any grant military assistance until after the 1973 Yom Kippur War. As a result, Israel had to go deeply into debt to finance its economic development and arms procurement. The decision to convert military aid to grants that year was based on the prevailing view in Congress that without a strong Israel, war in the Middle East was more likely, and that the U.S. would face higher direct expenditures in such an eventuality. For several years, most of Israel's economic aid went to pay off old debts. In 1984, foreign aid legislation included the Cranston Amendment (named after its Senate sponsor), which said the U.S. would provide Israel with economic assistance "not less than" the amount Israel owes the United States in annual debt service payments. MYTH “Israel continues to demand large amounts of economic aid even though it is now a rich country that no longer needs help.” FACT Starting with fiscal year 1987, Israel annually received $1.2 billion in all grant economic aid and $1.8 billion in all grant military assistance. In 1998, Israel offered to voluntarily reduce its dependence on U.S. economic aid. According to an agreement reached with the Clinton Administration and Congress, the $1.2 billion economic aid package will be reduced by $120 million each year so that it will be phased out over 10 years. Half of the annual savings in economic assistance each year ($60 million) will be added to Israel's military aid package in recognition of its increased security needs. In 2001, Israel received $840 million in economic aid and $1.98 billion in military aid. In 2002, economic aid was reduced to $720 million and military aid to Israel was budgeted at $2.04 billion. Israel made the offer because it does not have the same need for assistance it once did. The foundation of Israel's economy today is strong; still, Israel remains saddled with past debts to the U.S., which, unlike those of Jordan and Egypt, were not forgiven. In addition, Israel still can use American help. The country still has the tremendous financial burden of absorbing tens of thousands of immigrants from the former Soviet Union, a very high rate of unemployment and an alarmingly high number of people who fall below the poverty line. The situation was further exacerbated by the violence of the last two years, which has devastated the tourist industry and all related service sectors of the economy. Furthermore, concessions made in peace negotiations have required the dismantling of military bases and the loss of valuable resources that must be replaced. MYTH “Israel boasts that it is the fourth strongest nation in the world, so it certainly doesn't need U.S. military assistance.” FACT Israel has peace treaties with only two of its neighbors. It remains technically at war with the rest of the Arab/Islamic world and several countries, notably Iran and Iraq, are openly hostile. Given the potential threats, it is a necessity that Israel continue to maintain a strong defense. Israel is a powerful country, but as the arms balance chart indicates, it is still outmanned and outgunned by its enemies, and therefore must rely on its qualitative advantage to insure it can defeat its enemies, and that can only be guaranteed by the continued purchase of the latest weapons. New tanks, missiles and planes carry high price tags, however, and Israel cannot afford what it needs on its own, so continued aid from the United States is vital to its security. Furthermore, Israel's enemies have numerous suppliers, but Israel must rely almost entirely on the United States for its hardware. MYTH “U.S. military aid subsidizes Israeli defense contractors at the expense of American industry.” FACT Contrary to popular wisdom, the United States does not simply write billion dollar checks and hand them over to Israel to spend as they like. Only about 26 percent ($555 million of $2.1 billion in 2003) of what Israel receives in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) can be spent in Israel for military procurement. The remaining 74 percent is spent in the United States to generate profits and jobs. More than 1,000 companies in 47 states, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico have signed contracts worth billions of dollars through this program over the last several years. The figures for 2001 are below: The Value of Foreign Military Financing (FMF) Orders by State10 Alabama $15,010,584 Arkansas $496,212 Arizona $23,053,020 California $155,969,600 Colorado $33,864,588 Connecticut $510,697,156 Delaware $367,011 District of Columbia $3,609,508 Florida $94,222,258 Georgia $158,911,735 Iowa $4,830 Idaho $151,977 Illinois $57,492,657 Indiana $46,200,627 Kansas $91,328 Kentucky $1,539,095 Louisiana $145,824 Massachusetts $25,080,078 Maryland $62,805,516 Maine $33,201,400 Michigan $67,447,234 Minnesota $10,886,633 Missouri $1,927,615 Mississippi $2,571,630 Montana $30,350 North Carolina $38,944,632 Nebraska $3,654 New Hampshire $17,254,145 New Jersey $52,750,873 New Mexico $55,554 Nevada $1,043,287 New York $110,854,412 Ohio $42,646,748 Oklahoma $132,572 Oregon $5,512,292 Pennsylvania $11,478,193 Rhode Island $841,354 South Carolina $4,598,444 South Dakota $4,893,179 Tennessee $7,752,077 Texas $62,854,229 Utah $257,378 Virginia $28,575,976 Vermont $2,062,222 Washington $3,844,029 Wisconsin $6,407,070 West Virginia $73,746 Wyoming $14,500 |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| Jeffrey | Jul 23 2005, 07:53 AM Post #6 |
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Senior Carp
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Bach - "The remaining 74 percent is spent in the United States to generate profits and jobs" Yes, the "aid" to Israel is really a form of indirect subsidy of US military contractors. That's why it has such broad support in the US. ![]() "acttually i also agree, we'd be better off without aid, " That's why Israelis are winners.
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| Amanda | Jul 23 2005, 08:05 AM Post #7 |
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Senior Carp
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Tom, For a propagandist, you sure are sloppy. A. What is your source for this colorful green chart? B. Define your terms. "Per capita"? Whose population - capitation? The US or Israel? Oops, forgive. I mean, "the rest of the world"? Let's speak plainly. You are insinuating that your "views" (see FrankM's sabotaged "civil" Israel thread) were met with disfavor because posters here are protecting dollar amounts, for some reason? http://s10.invisionfree.com/The_New_Coffee...?showtopic=2015 Is it possible that intelligent non-partisan members are fed the hell up with your in-your-face insults and agenda-driven distortions? Whatever, "his [your] agenda is" - to quote an un-named dispassionate member. Anyone interested in actual relative figures for foreign aid, as posted by the US State Department (sorry, I've only succeeded thus far to find it in pdf format) please consult the following website, page five - scroll to final column on right for total aid for individual countries. There we readily see that the figure for Egypt is close to 2 billion all by itself, while scrolling down to Isarel we see a grand total of 2.8 billion, including all programs - allocated as bach said. So how many Arab countries does that leave us? I'm sure educated and alert readers can find them alphabetically on their own. http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/aid/fy2002part17.pdf Please use your older daughter's school report for your next data presentation chart. Perhaps the teacher will have required a better explanation of her sources - and more accuracy. Nice coloring though! (A+) |
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[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005 | |
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| ivorythumper | Jul 23 2005, 09:34 AM Post #8 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Amanda: You might not consider me intelligent, but I am dispassionate in this matter, and think Tom is well within the bounds of common courtesy to give his POV on an international matter affecting the US. Your attacks on him ("fed the hell up with your in-your-face insults and agenda-driven distortions?") because he does not see being a loyal American and giving a rat's patooty about Israel as being coterminous hurts your case for this reader. I am not sure why a Federation of American Scientists spreadsheet is to be considered particularly valid data for you, but even assuming so Population Egypt = $2 billion / 77 mill = $25/person Population Israel = $2.8 billion / 6 mill = $466/person both yours and Tom's figures are to a factor of +/- 20, so his point still seems to stand. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| tcmod | Jul 23 2005, 10:51 AM Post #9 |
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Senior Carp
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coterminous....adj 1. having the same or coincident boundaries 2. having the same scope, range of meaning, duration just so no one else has to look it up
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| Dead girls don't say no, but you still have to buy them flowers | |
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| Amanda | Jul 23 2005, 10:55 AM Post #10 |
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Senior Carp
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ivorythumper
I consider you very intelligent. It is very misleading, as I explained, to present an unexplained chart of "per capita" expenditures. In fact, it is more than misleading, it is meaningless - except for the postscript which says "follow the money". What's more, I take particular umbrage here, as Tom posted this to rebut a point I made elsewhere shortly before this thread was begun. In it, I claimed that US aid to Israel is about the same as aid to the Arab countries. This is contrary to common assumptions, and is, I believe, an important point. However, Israel is a much smaller country, so of course, if you divide up the aid expenditures (not quite aid, but that's irrelevant here), its going to come out looking like his green striped chart. Presenting data like this - especially to an audience of those who may not, as you said " give a rat's patootie about Israel (which is of course, their right) amounts to wholly unacceptable propaganda. It amounts to a statistical distortion intended to poison attitudes against Israel on the basis of misrepresentation. Let people make up their minds based on as clear a presentation of the facts, as possible. I am sure everyone past childhood realizes how many ways there are to lie. Eliminating part of the truth is one. I need not go on. Anyone looking at that unexplicated chart, realizes what an inaccurate impression Tom's "facts" would have left with them -- without this debriefing. As far as Tom's POV...what is it, exactly? He said that his ideas are unpopular because of a meaningful "money trail". This comment alone insults the audience on this board, by claiming anyone who doesn't appreciate his inflammatory baiting tactics is mercenary - incapable of forming ethical or reasonable judgments on other bases. I doubt that. The group here is VERY smart and well educated, as far as I've noted. Understandably, however, people aren't as a whole, as involved with this issue as some of us. In my case, the why of that, is deep and well-founded concern about rising global antisemitism, and a backlash against Israel. Given this lessened "public" interest, it's very important that sound and visual "bytes" be accurate. If they're not, they should and must be challenged. That’s my responsibility not only to both Israel and America as a concerned citizen of both, but to members here. Whatever conclusions they draw let them be properly informed, at least. Israel 's in a hard enough spot, without having arguments against her, being based on deliberate distortion. And frankly, the motives of someone who presents such de facto lies, needs to be called into question. I wonder why Tom's "case" isn't apparently hurt with you, by his contemptuous treatment of bach last night. This was especially a shame, occurring as it did on a thread begun with the best of intentions, to provide for "civil" exchange with one another. Yes, bach said Tom was ignorant. (and this is an admirable understatement to anyone more familiarwith the facts of the situation) . Did this occur after lengthy provocation, from Tom? Tom made repeated racist and other accusations of character flaws against bach and his entire nation – and with no more justification than his personal, uninformed opinion. If it had been a live debate, Tom would have been shouting and pointing fingers while bach tried to provide information and respond to Tom point by point. Respectfully. So much for civil discourse! I am disappointed. Ivorythumper - you claimed you are dispassionate. I have not seen it here. Be fair. |
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[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005 | |
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| TomK | Jul 23 2005, 01:49 PM Post #11 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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CRAP. I never insulted bach personally. He insulted me. As for countries being insulted--that's a given around here. So what? I never insult you personally, YOU INSULT ME. You are loosing this fight big time, sweetie. This isn't the West Bank I'm not a Palestinian and you can't just bulldoze me over because you don't like me. Sorry toots--it's real world time. ![]() Follow the money still works ("We don't want your money, patooie!!!!" Not withstanding.)And we've already seen--you guys plot together...hmmm what else of the Hmmmm might be... NO THAT WOULD BE WRONG!!!! ![]() Let's explore. So go now talk among youselves--and please come up with a little better way of making youselves clear. What more can I ask? Please children, just try a little harder, Do it for me, do it for Israel!!! Love you, Amanda.
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| Jolly | Jul 23 2005, 02:45 PM Post #12 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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There is a tremendous amount of Soviet stuff available on the open market right now, including some pretty nifty airframes, or some Kilo class subs. The Israelis (and much of the rest of the developed world) don't seem to be too interested. They could always spend their money elsewhere, but they seem to want our military technology. Wonder why? Or do we really have to wonder....... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Phlebas | Jul 23 2005, 03:13 PM Post #13 |
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Bull-Carp
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Tom, Your experiece on the NYC party circuit is not helping you here. You're coming off a bit in the shrill side. One NYer to another. |
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| bachophile | Jul 23 2005, 03:16 PM Post #14 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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yes u r right, because being called a ku klux klanner is a great compliment in the south were u live, correct? tom, honestly, i dont know u personally, i doubt we will ever meet, and i dont lose too much sleep over your posts here. and im sure u r charming and debonair. but the bottom line is, i can understand anyone presenting a coherrent intelligent argument not sympathetic to israel, the situation is complex and there are many points of view. u, on the other hand, are simply ignorant. not an insult, its just apparent and obvious from your posts. and the worst part is u r unaware that u r ignorant. and this probably has no remedy. so we are condemned to live with it in this forum. and so be it. i enjoy myself here anyway. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| TomK | Jul 23 2005, 03:30 PM Post #15 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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If you don't come across as shrill, then you aren't on the NYC party circuit. N=uf said. |
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| TomK | Jul 23 2005, 03:43 PM Post #16 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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bach, you commit fratricide. you are a slave owning money grubbing murderer. you kill people that u may live. you take MY MONEY to do this. you make rules about the survival of your "race" and in truth--those palestinians are YOUR BROTHERS! and more SEMITIC than you. they are you. you come from europe. the REAL SEMITES have tilled palestine since the creation. you are an intruder. bach, you are either an anti Semite or just ignorant. |
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| bachophile | Jul 23 2005, 04:09 PM Post #17 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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i leave it to the good will of the readers of this forum to decide who is the bigot. i challenge u all to take a stand. not on israel or palestine. but on the integrity and purpose of this forum. it makes no difference to me who supports or doesnt support israel in this forum. in fact im more then happy to have a serious exchange ideas with anyone here. but as ive said repeatedly, my argument with the person who penned this filth has nothing to do with the legitimate political discourse on the middle east. its with the erotic pleasure of hate which is being fomented here. if u stand by quietly, u agree by your silence. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| TomK | Jul 23 2005, 04:26 PM Post #18 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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So let's research who is a Semite and who isn't? It may take thread of two. Fine with me it it's fine with you. bach, old buddy--I may turn out to be more Semitic than you. Let me do a little digging. And you old friend--open another bottle of Champaigne on my tab! (And not the cheep stuff like we send the Arabs!)
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| pianojerome | Jul 23 2005, 04:59 PM Post #19 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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"commit fratricide". This refers to the killing of one's biological brothers (immediate family). He hasn't of yet admitted to doing this. "slave owning". He owns slaves? Is slavery legal in Israel? "money grubbing". He doesn't sound greedy to me. But that's not something so apparent I guess. "murderer" "you kill people that you may live". He is a doctor. He saves lives, he doesn't steal them. He is not in the military (then he still wouldn't be a murderer; he'd be a soldier), and he hasn't mentioned anything about personally killing anyone. "you take MY MONEY to do this." How can he take your money to do something he hasn't done. Haven't we also established, though, that the government of Israel is not the same thing as every single Jew or every single Israeli? Bach hasn't taken any of your money. "you make rules about the survival of your "race"". What rules? That we should defend ourselves against our attackers? Every race tries to defend itself against attackers. He's not making up any rules in that regard. "those palestinians are YOUR BROTHERS! and more SEMITIC than you. they are you." What does "more" semetic mean? Israelis and Palestinians are both semitic peoples. But Palestinians are not Israelis and Israelis are not Palestinians. In some cases, there are Israeli Palestinians. But the terrorists are not Israelis. "you come from europe. the REAL SEMITES have tilled palestine since the creation. you are an intruder.". What are "real" semites? The Jews ruled Palestine (actually, "Judea") up until the year 70 CE, when Roman intruders exiled (or murdered) them all, destroyed the holy temple, and renamed the land "Palestine" (after the Philistines, one of the worst enemies of the Jews in Judea). Jews have continued to live there since then, of course, but most were either murdered or exiled. Thus the semitic Jews are returning to their homeland from which they were exiled almost 2,000 years ago. "bach, you are either an anti Semite or just ignorant." His posts clearly show that he is not at all ignorant on the issue. Anti-semite generally refers to an animosity against Jews, which he clearly does not have. Anti-semite may also refer to an animosity against Arabs, which he also clearly does not have. As he has said, he is perfectly willing to intelligently discuss the situation. He is a reasonable man. He does not hate. |
| Sam | |
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| TomK | Jul 23 2005, 05:31 PM Post #20 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Sam, Yea, yea, yea, I know. I know. All bachisims. It's what he does to me. I'm just flipping him on his backside and spankng him a bit. Hold me to a standard--fine, you are held to that standard, too. I mean it. The Jews that are playing with me on this board--they have an agenda and get pretty upset if someone disagrees with. They honestly don't see the difference between attacking Israel and attacking THEM PERSONALLY. I don't attack Jews. I don't attack the Jewish religion or beliefs I merely attack a foreign country that in 50 years can't get it's act straightend out. Israel is a foreign country. Period. |
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| pianojerome | Jul 23 2005, 06:33 PM Post #21 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Tom, You may just be playing around. You have the right to say whatever you want, and to play around as you want. However, it's quite obvious that the Jews here AND NON-JEWS AS WELL are very much offended with your "playing around". I'm not joking around with you, nor is Bach. The Jews on this board - and the non-Jews for that matter - are not playing with you when we tell you that we are offended by your comments and your "playing around." You may think you're just being silly and "spanking" Bach - treating him as you think he is treating you. Well, you are being silly, you're treating Bach much more harshly and ignorantly than he is treating you, and a lot of us here don't like it. |
| Sam | |
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| TomK | Jul 24 2005, 12:50 AM Post #22 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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OK Sam, I've make my point, no sense hammering away at it forever. This Israel thing is getting a little old anyway. And bach, Sam mentioned that some of my words to you might have been ill chosen. He may just be right. You have my apology. Let's be friends. ![]() Well, on to other things. Mosel Tov.
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| Klotz | Jul 24 2005, 02:26 AM Post #23 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Staying away means also staying away from the filth. With all respect r. ------------------------------------------------------ Don't argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience |
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| Dewey | Jul 24 2005, 02:58 AM Post #24 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I've been waiting patiently for this post, and that's it?!! (BTW, muchas gracias for the recent email) |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Jeffrey | Jul 24 2005, 05:43 AM Post #25 |
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Senior Carp
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Klotz - Excellent post. Love the tag line. |
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Not withstanding.)
So go now talk among youselves--and please come up with a little better way of making youselves clear. What more can I ask? Please children, just try a little harder, Do it for me, do it for Israel!!!



4:13 PM Jul 10