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Quiz for all of you know it alls!
Topic Started: Jul 22 2005, 01:52 PM (1,341 Views)
Jeffrey
Senior Carp
Luke - You mean in a boxing match if one guy is just pounding on the other, we don't know who is the leader?

I still like Russian Roulette as the best answer. :devilgrin:
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ivorythumper
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Read the question again. No one knows knows the score or the leader until the contest ends.

And in russian roulette one knows the score in each round and by elimination who is not the leader. :D
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
Steve - We are having some problems with logic predicates in the English language here.

Luke said originally: "neither the spectators nor the participants know the score or the leader until the contest ends."

The phrase "score OR leader" means that we must not be able to know EITHER ONE , before the end.

But we often (in fact, usually) DO know who is the leader in a boxing match, for example if one guy is pounding on the other. So do the boxers: for example, one guy's handlers may tell him to push harder next round, because he is behind. We might sometimes in a close fight not know, but it is not impossible to meet Luke's requirements in a boxing match.

Again, Russian Roulette seems the best answer, although it is not an ESPN-approved sport. :devilgrin: :P
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ivorythumper
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Jeffrey
Jul 23 2005, 08:35 AM
Steve - We are having some problems with logic predicates in the English language here.

Luke said originally: "neither the spectators nor the participants know the score or the leader until the contest ends."

The phrase "score OR leader" means that we must not be able to know EITHER ONE , before the end.

But we often (in fact, usually) DO know who is the leader in a boxing match, for example if one guy is pounding on the other. So do the boxers: for example, one guy's handlers may tell him to push harder next round, because he is behind. We might sometimes in a close fight not know, but it is not impossible to meet Luke's requirements in a boxing match.

Again, Russian Roulette seems the best answer, although it is not an ESPN-approved sport. :devilgrin: :P

OK, Jeff -- even though no sane person considers RR a "sport" -- you should stick to your guns on this one. :D
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Jeffrey
Jul 23 2005, 12:35 PM
Steve - We are having some problems with logic predicates in the English language here.

Luke said originally: "neither the spectators nor the participants know the score or the leader until the contest ends."

The phrase "score OR leader" means that we must not be able to know EITHER ONE , before the end.

But we often (in fact, usually) DO know who is the leader in a boxing match, for example if one guy is pounding on the other. So do the boxers: for example, one guy's handlers may tell him to push harder next round, because he is behind. We might sometimes in a close fight not know, but it is not impossible to meet Luke's requirements in a boxing match.

Again, Russian Roulette seems the best answer, although it is not an ESPN-approved sport. :devilgrin: :P

Nope, you can have your expectations, and opinions, but often times surprised by the outcome on the judges score card.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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The 89th Key
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You said:

10. Seven ways a baseball player can legally reach first base without getting a hit . . . taking a base on balls (a walk) ... batter hit by a pitch, passed ball, catcher interference, catcher drops third strike, fielder's choice and being designated as a pinch-runner.

How does one get to first from a passed ball?
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ivorythumper
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The 89th Key
Jul 23 2005, 02:04 PM
You said:

10. Seven ways a baseball player can legally reach first base without getting a hit . . . taking a base on balls (a walk) ... batter hit by a pitch, passed ball, catcher interference, catcher drops third strike, fielder's choice and being designated as a pinch-runner.

How does one get to first from a passed ball?

Or with fielder's choice? Doesn't require that the ball be hit?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
god, im not even living in america and i can answer u IT.

a fielders choice is not a legal hit. a pitcher can still have a legal no hitter after a fielders choice.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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The 89th Key
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Well a fielders choice is sketchy, since they did hit the ball...just it's not recorded as a hit.

The passed ball one still doesn't make sense. :confused:
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kentcouncil
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ivorythumper
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bachophile
Jul 23 2005, 03:18 PM
god, im not even living in america and i can answer u IT.

a fielders choice is not a legal hit. a pitcher can still have a legal no hitter after a fielders choice.

Quote:
 
10. There are 7 ways a baseball player can legally reach first base without getting a hit. Taking a base on balls (a walk) is one way. Name the other 6.


Bach, the question did not ask about a "legal hit" -- it asked about legally getting to first without getting a hit.

From MLB webpage
Quote:
 
FIELDER'S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair grounder and, instead of throwing to first base to put out the batter runner, throws to another base in an attempt to put out a preceding runner. The term is also used by scorers (a) to account for the advance of the batter runner who takes one or more extra bases when the fielder who handles his safe hit attempts to put out a preceding runner; (b) to account for the advance of a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a fielder is attempting to put out another runner; and © to account for the advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive team's indifference (undefended steal).


The term primarily applies to a fair hit.

The three other uses of the term still do not answer the question, since the runner is already on base. Given me a scenario where a runner gets to first without a hit based on any of these definitions.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
i think from the wording of the question, its to give a scenario where a person reaches base without a legal hit, not whether his bat touches the ball.

for example, a sacrifice bunt also gets u on base and is not considered a hit.

obviously i cant tell u what the original idea of the formulator of the question was, but from the overall language i infer that he was looking for instances where u reach base without a legal hit.

this is the answer given at the source of the quiz...Batter hit by a pitch; passed ball; catcher interference; catcher drops
third strike; fielder's choice; and being designated as a pinch runner. (Classbrain)

i think the pinch runner thing is ridiculous, but what can i do.

anyway, i understood the question as a legal hit.

by the way, a walk, sacrifice and intereference or hit by pitcher is not even considered a legal "at bat" for figuring out hitting average, and yet reaches first.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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The 89th Key
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My question still stands...passed ball!?!? :confused:
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ivorythumper
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bachophile
Jul 24 2005, 10:00 AM
i think from the wording of the question, its to give a scenario where a person reaches base without a legal hit, not whether his bat touches the ball.

for example, a sacrifice bunt also gets u on base and is not considered a hit.

obviously i cant tell u what the original idea of the formulator of the question was, but from the overall language i infer that he was looking for instances where u reach base without a legal hit.

this is the answer given at the source of the quiz...Batter hit by a pitch; passed ball; catcher interference; catcher drops
third strike; fielder's choice; and being designated as a pinch runner. (Classbrain)

i think the pinch runner thing is ridiculous, but what can i do.

anyway, i understood the question as a legal hit.

by the way, a walk, sacrifice and intereference or hit by pitcher is not even considered a legal "at bat" for figuring out hitting average, and yet reaches first.

Then why not also include bunt if it is not considered a hit? FWIW, MLB official rules do not define what is a "hit", but define a bunt as
Quote:
 
A BUNT is a batted ball not swung at, but intentionally met with the bat and tapped slowly within the infield.


And why isn't balk listed among the ways to get to first without hitting?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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The 89th Key
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A balk only advances runners already on base...right?

My question still stands...how do you get to first on a passed ball!?!?!?!?!?
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
ok after reading at mlb.com, i think 89th is right. passed ball is definatly not a way to reach first. and a balk advances only runners on base.

i think the error lies with the formulator of the question, he had a good idea for a brain teaser but was not erudite enough in baseball arcana.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Phlebas
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Bull-Carp
I think the problem is also the wording on mlb.com .

Also, a bunt can be either a hit or a fielder's choice.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Hey, I just got an email from a friend with the quiz, thought some of the questions were interesting (especially the Niagra Falls question), and thought I'd pass it along. I never thought it would start getting into an issue of semantics.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
baseball rules are extreemly complex and like any set of laws, are very dependent on semantics and careful wording.

u can extrapolate easily to real life, where codices of law are very exacting in their textual usage of words.

when u read through baseball rules, u start to appreciate what a dificult job an umpire is. u have to have an eagle eye, and at the same time be fully versed in the intricacies of the rules, and have to run around in the sun and rain to boot.

makes being a supreme court judge look simple.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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ivorythumper
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bachophile
Jul 25 2005, 05:26 AM
ok after reading at mlb.com, i think 89th is right. passed ball is definatly not a way to reach first. and a balk advances only runners on base.

i think the error lies with the formulator of the question, he had a good idea for a brain teaser but was not erudite enough in baseball arcana.

I think that the following are true:

On a third strike, the passed ball allows the batter to take the base.

On a fourth ball, the balk becomes a ball and allows the batter to take the base.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
can u give sources please? taking first on a dropped third strike after a passed ball, is by virtue of the drop, not the catchers error for the passed ball.

also not sure of the balk rule on 4 th ball.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
are u using the greek septuagint version of MLB rules???

u must use the original!!!
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
PENALTY:(for balk) The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk. (from MLB)

wild pitches and passed balls are simply errors, and runners advance as in any other wild throw, eg..overthrowing first.

it has no effect on the batter other then being a "ball" in the pitching count.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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The 89th Key
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Luke's Dad
Jul 25 2005, 11:18 AM
Hey, I just got an email from a friend with the quiz, thought some of the questions were interesting (especially the Niagra Falls question), and thought I'd pass it along. I never thought it would start getting into an issue of semantics.

You underestimate the POWER of the CR. :ph43r:
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The 89th Key
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bachophile
Jul 25 2005, 11:22 AM
when u read through baseball rules, u start to appreciate what a dificult job an umpire is. u have to have an eagle eye, and at the same time be fully versed in the intricacies of the rules, and have to run around in the sun and rain to boot.

makes being a supreme court judge look simple.

I used to be an umpire!! :D

...perhaps Bush should nominate me. I bet you all would LOVE that! :P
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