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Israel discussion revisited; civilly
Topic Started: Jul 21 2005, 03:54 PM (654 Views)
Amanda
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Senior Carp
I am wondering if Frank is around to act as facilitator as he suggested. It would be a shame for this thread, this good idea, to deteriorate.

I wonder if it might be more fruitful for participants to describe what they see as being at the origin of the difficulties of the problems in the State of Israel vis a vis the Palestinians - in concrete and historical terms. Lofty generalizations seem unhelpful.
Jon-nyc is especially knowledgeable in this area, if he is around, as is Alberta Crude.

And can we begin by seeing if there is agreement about the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign state, at least?

As far as details concerning the governance of Israel proper, it makes much more sense for us to defer to someone who lives there, I believe.

Bachophile, may God bless and protect your son.
[size=5]
We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
[/size]

"Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
bachophile
Jul 22 2005, 05:39 PM
Quote:
 
. In a country that's a little less than one quarter Palestinian how many of the police are Palestinian? Imagine if American cities no Black policemen.


u see, when u write things like this it shows u have no conception what u r talking about. simply ignorant.

the israeli police force is actually about 20% arab, yes, in line with their population percentage. in the same way there are 20% arab knesset members.

there are no "palestinians" in the police because they are not citizens, simply the same way u wont find mexican policemen but u do find hispanic policeman in american police forces.

the palistinians are currently stateless, they were administered by jordan between 1948 and 1967 and by us since 1967. until they get their self determination worked out and then they can be in their own police force. actually, they do have a police force but it sort of disentegrated when most of them used their weapons against israelis, and now is basically defunct. one of abbas's jobs, if u read the news, is to reform the police to function as a police.

u dont understand that there is a de facto border between the palistinian territoires and israel proper. u cant just go there, its another land, another jursidiction. (im talking about areas under palistinain control, whats called areas A and B under the oslo accords.)

so again my dear friend, im not accusing u of anti semitism, im accusing u of ignorance. and im not sure which is worse...

bach what are you talking about? I'm not talking about Israel proper--I'm talking about the people you are subjugating in the West Bank. Aren't Israeli settlements in the West Bank under Palestinian control--don't Palestinian police patrol THEIR OWN TERRITORY?

And what do you mean by stateless? You act is if that's something natural. That was a condition that was IMPOSED on them by Israel. And maybe they WANT to become citizens of Israel. Maybe you should let them vote?

How can you say that Israelis can't go into Palestinian territory, there are settlements there galore.

You have a "rational" answer to every question--"well there was a police force till.. yada yada yada." That answer would be NO it was disbanded by Israel. Thank you. And you brush off inequality like it was nothing--"yes in the United States we jail all our Blacks--it keeps the crime down, you know!"

bach, you sound like a KKKer in 1949 in the American South.

Give honest answers.

And for you information: the United States in not in control of Mexico. Our soldiers don't harass it's citizens. It's a separate country. We don't rule it. Mexicans aren't stateless.

SPIN.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
if u were talking of israel proper,. then why do u ask if there r palistinians in israeli police??? its an absurd question, just like its absurd that there would be mexican police in texas.

Quote:
 
That was a condition that was IMPOSED on them by Israel.


excuse me but we inherited the problem from jordan. between 1948-1967 they had the exact same status. they were stateless. thats a legal given.

as for palistinian terroitories, again u dont understand. the area is legally divided now into areas of control by the oslo accords. the areas under their control, all main cities and most of countryside is off limits to all, including settlers.

as for your kkk remark, this is why i find it impossile to talk to u. u spout nonsense, throw in insults, and then pretend to be a great defender of human rights.

u simply dont know what u r talking about.

and the ironic thing is, im very much on the left in israel, im for being pragmatic and finding a reasonable 2 state solution, and then i read your drivel and realize, that its simply not worth my time and energy.

this was started as a civil talk and i made an honest effort to answer u issue by issue. i sense that with all your intelligence,. and i dont doubt your intelligence, u simply either dont know about israel, dont want to know, or dont care.

and so, i find myself understanding amanda and jeffrey who often chide me for even answering u, because its simply goes no where.

but god knows, i try...
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
bach, grasp this point: you don't treat Palestinians as human beings equal to you. And you Jews should know what that sort of behavior leads to.

As you said bach:

Quote:
 
so again my dear friend, im not accusing u of anti semitism, im accusing u of ignorance. and im not sure which is worse...


You have the Israeli SPIN machine working in full force.
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
bachophile
Jul 22 2005, 07:14 PM

and so, i find myself understanding amanda and jeffrey who often chide me for even answering u,

Ohhhhhhhh!!!!!

And so we find: there IS A CONSPIRICY after all. ;) :D

I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!! :tongue:
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
Jolly: "It is my opinion that most of the nations of the Middle East would drop the Palestinians like a hot rock, if they were not such a thorn in the side of the Israelis. So how does one negotiate with others, whose purpose is primarily to agitate you whenever possible? "

Sometimes I must admire Jolly's way with words and ability to get to the heart of an issue quickly.
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Amanda
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Senior Carp
Jolly (one word altered):
Quote:
 
So how does one talk with others, whose purpose is primarily to agitate you whenever possible? "


...and his words can be applied to so many situations too!
[size=5]
We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
[/size]

"Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005
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