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| Israel discussion revisited; civilly | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 21 2005, 03:54 PM (653 Views) | |
| FrankM | Jul 21 2005, 03:54 PM Post #1 |
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Senior Carp
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There appears to be some progress in some recent threads on this subject. On the other hand, others have appeared to unravel. I assume my share of th blame for the latter. This might fly like the proverbial lead ballon here but I'll give it a shot. I propose we zero-base the discussion on Israel. In other words, let’s start from scratch. Let’s forget all the bad blood that has developed here from past discussions of this and related topics. I suggest that the approach be a joint braimstorming discussion where everybody interested in the subject work constructively together to find a satisfactory solution that meets all the objectives. I also suggest that WTF rules be applied for this particular discussion. The usual format for a brainstorming discussion is to jointly agree on a set of objectives (such as ensurance of long term security for Israel, ensurance that the needs of Palestians will be met consistent with all other objectives, and so forth) and then proceed to contributing suggested approaches and methods for jointly satisfying all objectives. Also, such sessions gather all suggested appoaches and methods before criticizing any of them because often the best solution emerges as some combination of approaches and methods. Regardless of the actual method used, the idea is to work with each other not against each other. Further, unless they help illuminate a constructive point, let’s eliminate discussions about Isreali history to this point. The problem to be addressed is as it stands now since that’s all that really matters. Ideally at least, it should be amenable to self-policing, but if anyone wants to serve as a moderator or enabler, fine Feel free to suggest alternative formats for such a discussion. To me, the main issue is keeping the discussion civil and constructive. Is anybody else here interested in this kind of discussion? It’s really the only kind I will spend any significant time on in real life, except maybe when discussing unimportant matters … and sports. Anyway, that's my contribution to trying to make useful headway in this topic that is important to so many of us, whatever the reasons. |
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| Jeffrey | Jul 21 2005, 04:05 PM Post #2 |
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Senior Carp
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Frank - Here's my real view. The rational, humane view is for all people in the region to vote equally. There should be no state based on ethnicity or religion. I don't believe in the Bible, so there is no God's mandate for anybody to live anywhere. There is an economic progress argument in favor of Israel, but surely the benefits should be shared on a basis other than ethnicity. Palestinians are people too, and should benefit from the economic progress of the region. Outside the territories the Palestinians are highly cultured, traveled and successful individuals. However, the world is not rational, or humane or peaceful. People murder each other for irrational reasons: the Holocaust, terrorism, ethnic cleansing in the Sudan and elsewhere. There will be another attempted Holocaust in the next few hundred years, just as there will be more terrorism in the next few hundred years. People frequently like to lash out at others, rather than accept responsibility for their own problems. This is a historical fact, and the Jews in Israel and elsewhere are not going to change it for the better on a world wide basis. It's just human nature. For that reason, Israel needs to remain a distinctively Jewish state,with a military arsenal. To attack a people who defend themselves with moral arguments and appeals to common humanity is relatively costless for the attacker. To attack a people with a nation-state and a nuclear arsenal is a more costly endeavor for a would be attacker. Those who don't like this, should work to end anti-semitism. Best Wishes to all - Jeffrey |
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| FrankM | Jul 21 2005, 04:13 PM Post #3 |
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Senior Carp
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Jeffrey, I know you're running off on a trip to London now. Hopefully this will still be going when you come back. Have a great trip to a great city!
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| Jeffrey | Jul 21 2005, 04:18 PM Post #4 |
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Senior Carp
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I am not leaving for 2 weeks. I just need to get some reservations, and co-ordinate with some people I may meet. |
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| bachophile | Jul 21 2005, 04:30 PM Post #5 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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if life were that easy... but sure, im game. i have always been pragmatic and i hate demagogery (sp?) which is often just alot of hot air. unlike jeffrey, i think there is more to israel then just a safe haven, although i think that in itself is certainly a legitimate veiwpoint. However, i freely admit that i believe in God and believe in the bible. and as such, i see myself having some connection to that specific peice of real estate. at the same time i believe also in the universalism expressed in isaiah, (...my house shall be a house of prayer for all peoples Isaiah 56:7). I think one can be a zionist without being an ultra nationalist. anyway, thats my opening salvo. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| FrankM | Jul 21 2005, 05:21 PM Post #6 |
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Senior Carp
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If I get a chance tomorrow, I’ll play the role of an enabler at least for a short while, in part to demonstrate how the role works for those not familiar with it. For example, my intent is to start to keep track of the objectives mentioned or at least implied by the posters and periodically list them with my interpretation of what they’re posting in this respect. This way someone can see if I interpreted them correctly and correct my statements accordingly. Also, I would try to give a synopsis of suggested approaches and methods to a solution. That’s quite a bit tougher to do, but at least it helps illuminate the cumulative progress that is actually being made. The enabler does not inject his/her own ideas. His/Hers is just a supporting role. I can’t promise I’ll be here tomorrow to do all that. But maybe I’ve explained what I mean well enough so someone can handle the role or something similar. What is especially fruitful is when someone who feels highly passionate about the subject acts as an enabler. It really forces that person to get outside themselves to try to see the issues objectively. I realize this might not go much further than this post. It might be simply that people are burnt out on the subject. If so, it might be worth another shot downstream. Then again, it might not be the right discussion style for TNCR. |
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| TomK | Jul 21 2005, 05:29 PM Post #7 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I agree with Jeffery on the essentials. (And personally Jeffery it is a pleasure to see you come around to your old analytical ways! :)) Here he falters:
Here the world becomes arbitrary. Who's right and who's wrong. Whose problems and history are more important than the next guys. If Jeffery could explain to me why any one particular life is more important than any other particular life. And better yet--what is a "people?" Why should one nationality take precedence over any other nationality. Why should any nationality play into any discussion of survival? Why be anything other than totally egalitarianism when such an important issue as human life is involved. This is where Jeffery's argument becomes illogical. We are all human. Everything other really doesn't matter, does it? |
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| Rick Zimmer | Jul 21 2005, 09:36 PM Post #8 |
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Fulla-Carp
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It seems to me part of the problem in discussing a means of at least calming things down if not finding a solution is that we do not discuss the Israeli's and the Palestinians in the same way. When speaking of Israel, we easily differentiate among the people of Israel, the Israeli government and fractional groups like the settlers in the occupied territories. I think this is what we should do because we need to hjandle each differently. However, we do not make these differentiations as readily with the Palestinians. If there is a suicide bombing, we say the Palestinians did it. If there is difficulty in the negotiations between Sharon and Abbas, we say it the the Palestinians. If we were to differentiate in our discussions among the Palestinian people, the Abbas government and groups like Hamas, we begin to break the problem down into its constituent parts. Just as we develop separate discussions about the Sharon Government, the settlers and the overall people of Israel, and can talk about how to react to/deal with each one even though there is clearly overlap, so also I think we need to look at separate policies dealing with the Abbas government, Hamas and similar groups and the Palestinian people as whole, again recognizing there would be overlap. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Steve Miller | Jul 21 2005, 09:45 PM Post #9 |
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Bull-Carp
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What do you think the Israel - Palestinian situation will look like in 20 years? Anyone? |
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Wag more Bark less | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Jul 21 2005, 09:54 PM Post #10 |
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Fulla-Carp
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The 1967 borders, a joint capital in Jerusalem, the city somehow being divided, a three-part joint group of Jews, Christians and Muslims administering the holy sites, a prosperous Israel having tense but peaceful relations with the Arabs (think US and China right now), a Palestine consisting of Gaza and much of the West Bank with some sort of physical connection and that is viable but economically dependent on Israel. The last territories to be negotiated will be the Golan Heights with Syria maintaining jurisdiction, but UN peace keepers patrolling. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| TomK | Jul 22 2005, 03:34 AM Post #11 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Excellent point Rick, but this differentiation really has to begin in Israel. Over there EVERY Palestinian is considered a terrorist--just most haven't committed an atrocity yet. There are armed police on every street corner, soldiers on and off duty walk the streets watching the Palestinians. Every Palestinian suffers when one Palestinian commits a crime. Every Palestinian carded and checked stopped and searched, prevented from going to work and earning a living at the arbitrary whim of any Israeli with even the whiff of authority. Palestinians businesses are shut down, people's houses are bulldozed. Palestinians are all the same to the Israelis. It's an ongoing terror, and the Palestinians have decided to fight back--in the wrong way unfortunately. I would venture to assume that more Palestinians have been killed by Israelis than the other way around by a long shot. |
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| jon-nyc | Jul 22 2005, 04:20 AM Post #12 |
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Cheers
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33% chance that they'll be some uneasy, two-state settlement, with a big wall, but still occasional terrorism 33% chance gaza has been returned, but israel retains defacto sovereignty of the entire west bank, with semi-autonomous palestinian areas, sort of like the indian reservations in the US. 33% chance that Israel will be unrecognizable, due to nuclear terrorism in tel aviv or jerusalem. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| jon-nyc | Jul 22 2005, 04:29 AM Post #13 |
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Cheers
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and frank - regarding your initial proposal, im certainly game. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| bachophile | Jul 22 2005, 04:30 AM Post #14 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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this is the"civil" thread so i will keep it civil. what u just wrote is completly false. that is an example of u coming up with these blanket statements, proclaiming your truth,and its so far off i dont know where to begin to argue. you are wrong, u r saying something simply not true. im not trying to insult u personaly, im just pointing out that u start this thread with a statement which shows your ignorance on a subject u write about alot, your 2 week trip to tel aviv and gaza notwithstanding. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| FrankM | Jul 22 2005, 05:51 AM Post #15 |
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Senior Carp
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jon, I'm not sure what you mean by my initial proposal. But I will say that I can't 't think of a better enabler than you, someone capable of seeing both sides of the issue objectively and mediating the discussion accordingly. While you're playing that role, you certainly can be stepping out of it periodically to contribute your views. But that is a lot of work. So, although I'd love to see you volunteer for it, I certainly can understand why you wouldn't. |
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| jon-nyc | Jul 22 2005, 06:20 AM Post #16 |
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Cheers
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Frank - I appreciate your vote of confidence in my objectivity, but I doubt that the core Israel supporters would agree. I'm afraid they'd see me rather like the Palestinians saw Dennis Ross. Or the US, for that matter. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| Jolly | Jul 22 2005, 06:47 AM Post #17 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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A man is what he is, and what he is, is the sum of all of his experiences and his education. Therefore, I'm biased and admit it. Keeping that in mind, the preservation of Israel is my priority. The question is what has to be done with the Arabic world, in order to achieve that goal. It is my opinion that most of the nations of the Middle East would drop the Palestinians like a hot rock, if they were not such a thorn in the side of the Israelis. So how does one negotiate with others, whose purpose is primarily to agitate you whenever possible? |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| FrankM | Jul 22 2005, 11:19 AM Post #18 |
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Senior Carp
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BUMP |
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| Amanda | Jul 22 2005, 11:39 AM Post #19 |
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Senior Carp
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jon:
jon, You see these as discrete possibilities? (Frank knows I'm trying to come up with a simplified statement of postition...I'm not able to make predictions like this because I'm a pessimist, I guess. Or maybe it's realism bogging me down. I'm not confident the world itself will chug along for the next decades, much less Israel. I'd rather predict the weather a month from now!) |
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[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005 | |
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| TomK | Jul 22 2005, 11:59 AM Post #20 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Fare enough point, my dear old friend bach. But as I said, who has ALL of the guns? Who patrols the streets? Are Palestinians allowed to question Israelis and ask for their papers? Do Palestinians put of walls to keep Israelis contained? Do Palestinians ever search Israeli homes? Do they ever take suspect Israelis into custody. Do Palestinians ever interrogate Israeli who they think committed a crime? Do Palestinians set up roadblocks to question Israelis? When a Palestinian breaks the law is he just punished or is his entire family punished? No. All these things are done by the Israelis to the Palestinians--not selectively to individuals but as a group. All Palestinians are perceived as guilty. |
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| bachophile | Jul 22 2005, 12:42 PM Post #21 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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1) all the guns? well if we had all the guns, life would be alot quieter. im under the impression that the gun shot wounds i treat in the ER are caused by bullets, not plastic arrows. 2)who patrols the streets? In israel, the israeli police, just like the ny police. 3) the seperation wall was initially pushed by the israeli left, the liberals. since it was built, suicide bombiing has dropped by many magnitudes. it was the right who was afraid the wall could become a political border, something they wanted to prevent. 4) in the west bank, yes arrests are made. like in the us. 5) when israelis are taken into palistinian custody, its usually to be lynched. 6)interrogate for what crime? most israelis never enter west bank villages. and if they do, are usually arrested by the israeli army, because there is a law which prohibits entering into palistininan controlled areas, punishble with prison, widely enforced. 7)roadblocks are terrible, but an unfortunate consequence of the security problem. as bombings went down, so did the number of roadblocks, now u barely hear about them, 8)collective punishment is reserved only for one crime. suicide bombing. the family home is destroyed. is it ethical? i dont know, maybe not, but if it deters bombing, then so be it. overall u seem really ignorant of life here. u imagine every arab that walks the streets in tel aviv is victimized. thats nonsense. israel is about 20% arab and they live ordinary lives. i have many arab collleagues in the hospital, no one thinks of them as different. i always buy my hummus from arab shops because its much better then the supermarket brands. palistinians are not allowed in israel in the same way that the US keeps illegal migrant mexicans out, u need to be in the country legally like anyhwere in the world. and judging from my experineces in airports and travelling around the world, being asked to identify oneself is an increasingly common thing, and something we all will have to get used to. ive been asked to show papers in europe and the us. not always a good feeling but usually innocuous. so, ive tried to answer u point by point. let me be honest, i dont think we are anywhere near an ideal situation. i think we have many miles to go to reach a reasonable solution. but you my dear friend, simply say things which are so far removed from reality that no one who understands the complex reality here, can take seriosuly, not even the ones more partial maybe to the left. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| bachophile | Jul 22 2005, 12:49 PM Post #22 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Two Israel Defense Forces paratroopers were hurt when gunmen opened fire on troops in the West Bank city of Hebron on Friday evening. this was reported a few hours ago on the news. plastic arrows? BTW, i have a son in the paratroops. |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| TomK | Jul 22 2005, 01:16 PM Post #23 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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To wit, dear friend: 1. It is the Israeli army that controls the real fire power. 2. In a country that's a little less than one quarter Palestinian how many of the police are Palestinian? Imagine if American cities no Black policemen. 3. It doesn't matter to me who put up the walls. It just seems to me that the Jews escaped one Ghetto only to build themselves another. 4. The Palestinians are allowed to search Israeli settlements on the West Bank? If I understand you correctly--you have my apology on this point. 5. For shame. If the Israelis had either assimilated with the Palestinians or helped them generate a good financial base this wouldn't be a problem. Keeping them as a subjugated people all these years... 6. Let me rephrase the question: if an Israel commits a crime against a Palestinian in the West Bank--is he tried by a Palestinian court? Palestinian justice? 7. Are Israelis subject to Palestinian roadblocks in their territory? 8. Collective punishment is pragmatic on the small scale--and it leads to things like Hamas on the large scale. All in all being a Palestinian in Israel sounds like being a Black in the US in 1949. Honestly bach, I have nothing against Jews, and from what I can see there are two distinct classes of people living in the boarders of the state of Israel--and I have a problem with you having those different grades of people. I have lots of friends and business associates that are Jews. Some that are Israelis and some that are Palestinian. They are all people--EXACTLY THE SAME. They all want the same thing, a good life for the families and some political freedom. Give people economic opportunity and hard line political troubles disappear pretty quickly. My Jewish, Israeli and Palestinian friends all get along with each other (and with me!) pretty well. We're all too busy making money off of one another to argue about politics. |
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| bachophile | Jul 22 2005, 01:39 PM Post #24 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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u see, when u write things like this it shows u have no conception what u r talking about. simply ignorant. the israeli police force is actually about 20% arab, yes, in line with their population percentage. in the same way there are 20% arab knesset members. there are no "palestinians" in the police because they are not citizens, simply the same way u wont find mexican policemen but u do find hispanic policeman in american police forces. the palistinians are currently stateless, they were administered by jordan between 1948 and 1967 and by us since 1967. until they get their self determination worked out and then they can be in their own police force. actually, they do have a police force but it sort of disentegrated when most of them used their weapons against israelis, and now is basically defunct. one of abbas's jobs, if u read the news, is to reform the police to function as a police. u dont understand that there is a de facto border between the palistinian territoires and israel proper. u cant just go there, its another land, another jursidiction. (im talking about areas under palistinain control, whats called areas A and B under the oslo accords.) so again my dear friend, im not accusing u of anti semitism, im accusing u of ignorance. and im not sure which is worse... |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| bachophile | Jul 22 2005, 01:51 PM Post #25 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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it has just occured to me u have no idea that the population of israel is made up of about 20% palistinian arabs who are citizens, vote and live in israel proper, carry the same passport and identity card as me and pays the same high taxes i do. and that there are arabs who live in the west bank who have been stateless since pre ottoman times, and are the ones involved in the conflict against israel,whose legal status is different, carry jordanian passports, and have never been and never want to be citizens of israel. what planet do u live on???????????? |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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4:13 PM Jul 10