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| That depends on what the definition of 'leak' is; says Bush (in effect) | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 18 2005, 09:24 AM (1,155 Views) | |
| Jolly | Jul 19 2005, 12:21 PM Post #51 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Of course the agency was delving into things political. They sent a political guy on a fact-finding mission, on the recommendation of his wife! After which he talked long and hard to anybody that would listen to him. It's a shame he didn't at least tell the truth. And when he started lying, is when this thing really went political, big time. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jul 19 2005, 12:26 PM Post #52 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Oh yeah, I forgot, Saddam really did have yellowcake. In an alternate reality, perhaps, but not in this one. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| JBryan | Jul 19 2005, 12:30 PM Post #53 |
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I am the grey one
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Why would a shift be meaningful if the methodology is flawed? Apples and oranges. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| JBryan | Jul 19 2005, 12:32 PM Post #54 |
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I am the grey one
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Excuse me but no one has ever made the assertion that Saddam acquired yellow cake from Niger. It has always been that he tried to acquire yellow cake from Niger. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| The 89th Key | Jul 19 2005, 12:33 PM Post #55 |
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![]() Mmmmmmm mmmmmmmm bitch! -Dave Chapelle.
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| Jolly | Jul 19 2005, 12:37 PM Post #56 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Don't take my word for it. I posted up the link to the Senate report today. If memory serves me correctly, they caught Wilson in three different lies. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| JBryan | Jul 19 2005, 12:46 PM Post #57 |
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I am the grey one
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Here is something to help put things in perspective: http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn17.html |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jul 19 2005, 04:24 PM Post #58 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Because, even if the polling question were biased, a massive change in the response over time indicates something quite significant.
And I ask, once again, what that has to do with outing a CIA operative. We can discuss whether Wilson lied, or not. But, assume for a moment he lied. Assume for a moment that Rove wanted to prove that. How does outing Wilson's wife as a CIA operative demonstrate that he was lying? The basic behavior is simply reprehensible. You don't out agents. Ever. Even if you suspect that their identity might already be public, you don't out agents. (And we know Rove knew that he was in the wrong, because he said that he'd already said too much. If her identity as an agent was already public, Rove wouldn't have said that.) If this had happened in the Clinton Administration, you guys would have been howling for someone's scalp. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Larry | Jul 19 2005, 04:57 PM Post #59 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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The basic behavior is simply reprehensible. You don't out agents. Ever. No one outed her. I read today that she registered to vote in 1999 under her cover name. She made a $1,000 donation to the Algore campaign under her cover name. She "outed" herself, in 1999. Also, she wasn't an undercover agent. You can't "out" someone who isn't "in". No, this is nothing more than politics as usual by the Democrats. Rove LIED!! Bush LIED!! Everyone LIED!! We're going to run them out of office!! We don't know why, but we'll think of something!! And the party lemmings take each day's talking points and rush out to carry the water they've been given that day.... Did you know that one week after Bush gave his speech mentioning the yellow cake, Wilson wrote an op ed piece in the LA paper saying Saddam had WMD? The "outrage" he expressed about BUSH LIED was not to be found. Do you know when he "discovered" he was angry at Bush for "lying"? When he joined the Kerry campaign. Those of you who are screaming "Rove LIED" are looking very foolish. Your handlers are having to change their stories every day because yesterday's reasons that "ROVE LIED" get proven wrong. The claim that Bush changed his position is also a red herring. Bush is saying the same exact thing now he said at the beginning. The *reporter* rephrased the question into a leading one, making the *reporter* the one who LIED. As a lawyer, I'd think you would stand up for the "innocent until proven guilty" dealie. That *is* a point of law, and you sure have hammered the rule of law hard when it suited your purpose in past debates. Now all of a sudden, you admit he didn't break any laws, but you want to convict him before he has his day in court anyway, simply because you think what your handlers tell you he did is "reprehensible". That's thin, Quirt. The woman registered to vote under her cover name. She made campaign contributions under her cover name. Her cover name was her married name, not some off the wall thing like "Sally Jones" or something. She didn't need much of a cover name, because she wasn't an undercover agent. She drove straight through the gates of Langley every day to go to work. All her friends, neighbors, and family knew where she worked. The first person to write it in the paper was a reporter. Rove didn't call that reporter, the reporter called Rove. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jul 19 2005, 05:16 PM Post #60 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Oh, get off it, Larry. This isn't a court of law, and ethical breaches aren't crimes anyway. Since when do legal standards apply? I don't care whether he has his day in court, because I don't believe now, and have never believed, that Rove broke the law. You can do something immoral without breaking the law. Whether conduct is criminal is not, and should not be, the standard by which White House officials are measured. Rove knew he was in the wrong. That's why he told Cooper, I've said too much already. And Bush knew that whether there is a violation of criminal law wasn't the right standard. Until, of course, it was proven that Rove was the leaker.
Now you're just being ludicrous and comical. Who did you think the first person to write it in the paper would be? A janitor? A baseball player? Last I heard, reporters are the people who write in newspapers. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| JBryan | Jul 19 2005, 06:14 PM Post #61 |
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I am the grey one
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Judging from the firestorm that has engulfed this matter I would say he was right on the money. I am simply amazed that anyone would construe anything that Bush said as meaning he would fire anyone over a nothingburger like what this has turned out to be. And, yes, I would say the same if this were the Clinton Administration but, then, he had people leaking actual FBI files (Kenneth Bacon, anyone?) to the collective yawns of Democrats and the Washington press corps. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Jolly | Jul 20 2005, 07:15 AM Post #62 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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A covert CIA operative - a real live secret agent - registered to vote under her own name? She gave money to the Democrats...under her own name? Secret agent? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| big al | Jul 20 2005, 09:40 AM Post #63 |
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Bull-Carp
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And what's so surprising about that? The secret of any spy lies in their covert activities, not their public identity. Big Al |
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Location: Western PA "jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen." -bachophile | |
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| Stainweggie | Jul 20 2005, 09:46 AM Post #64 |
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Junior Carp
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She didn't register under her public identity, and she didn't make her donation under her public identity - she did both of these things under her covert name. In effect, outing herself in 1999. |
| I have a 6' Stainweggie | |
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| ivorythumper | Jul 20 2005, 09:51 AM Post #65 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Brilliant, Al! A secret agent who poses during the day as a CIA functionary! You should write spy novels.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jul 20 2005, 11:51 AM Post #66 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Putting aside for the moment that either of those things might have been part of building her cover ... Source? |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jul 21 2005, 01:48 AM Post #67 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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For those who think she outed herself in 1999 ... apparently, the State Department didn't think so. She was still described as "secret" in 2003. And here's what the Wall Street Journal apparently said yesterday: "The Wall Street Journal reported Tuesday that the memo made it clear that information about Wilson's wife was sensitive and should not be shared." Don't believe everything you read in right-wing blogs. ---------------- Plame's Identity Marked As Secret Memo Central to Probe Of Leak Was Written By State Dept. Analyst By Walter Pincus and Jim VandeHei Washington Post Staff Writers Thursday, July 21, 2005; Page A01 A classified State Department memorandum central to a federal leak investigation contained information about CIA officer Valerie Plame in a paragraph marked "(S)" for secret, a clear indication that any Bush administration official who read it should have been aware the information was classified, according to current and former government officials. Plame -- who is referred to by her married name, Valerie Wilson, in the memo -- is mentioned in the second paragraph of the three-page document, which was written on June 10, 2003, by an analyst in the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), according to a source who described the memo to The Washington Post. The paragraph identifying her as the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV was clearly marked to show that it contained classified material at the "secret" level, two sources said. The CIA classifies as "secret" the names of officers whose identities are covert, according to former senior agency officials. Anyone reading that paragraph should have been aware that it contained secret information, though that designation was not specifically attached to Plame's name and did not describe her status as covert, the sources said. It is a federal crime, punishable by up to 10 years in prison, for a federal official to knowingly disclose the identity of a covert CIA official if the person knows the government is trying to keep it secret. Prosecutors attempting to determine whether senior government officials knowingly leaked Plame's identity as a covert CIA operative to the media are investigating whether White House officials gained access to information about her from the memo, according to two sources familiar with the investigation. The memo may be important to answering three central questions in the Plame case: Who in the Bush administration knew about Plame's CIA role? Did they know the agency was trying to protect her identity? And, who leaked it to the media? Almost all of the memo is devoted to describing why State Department intelligence experts did not believe claims that Saddam Hussein had in the recent past sought to purchase uranium from Niger. Only two sentences in the seven-sentence paragraph mention Wilson's wife. The memo was delivered to Secretary of State Colin L. Powell on July 7, 2003, as he headed to Africa for a trip with President Bush aboard Air Force One. Plame was unmasked in a syndicated column by Robert D. Novak seven days later. Wilson has said his wife's identity was revealed to retaliate against him for accusing the Bush administration of "twisting" intelligence to justify the Iraq war. In a July 6 opinion piece in the New York Times and in an interview with The Washington Post, he cited a secret mission he conducted in February 2002 for the CIA, when he determined there was no evidence that Iraq was seeking uranium for a nuclear weapons program in the African nation of Niger. White House officials discussed Wilson's wife's CIA connection in telling at least two reporters that she helped arrange his trip, according to one of the reporters, Matthew Cooper of Time magazine, and a lawyer familiar with the case. Prosecutors have shown interest in the memo, especially when they were questioning White House officials during the early days of the investigation, people familiar with the probe said. Karl Rove, President Bush's deputy chief of staff, has testified that he learned Plame's name from Novak a few days before telling another reporter she worked at the CIA and played a role in her husband's mission, according to a lawyer familiar with Rove's account. Rove has also testified that the first time he saw the State Department memo was when "people in the special prosecutor's office" showed it to him, said Robert Luskin, his attorney. "He had not seen it or heard about it before that time," Luskin said. Several other administration officials were on the trip to Africa, including senior adviser Dan Bartlett, then-White House spokesman Ari Fleischer and others. Bartlett's attorney has refused to discuss the case, citing requests by the special counsel. Fleischer could not be reached for comment yesterday. Rove and Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, have been identified as people who discussed Wilson's wife with Cooper. Prosecutors are trying to determine the origin of their knowledge of Plame, including whether it was from the INR memo or from conversations with reporters. The Wall Street Journal reported Tuesday that the memo made it clear that information about Wilson's wife was sensitive and should not be shared. Yesterday, sources provided greater detail on the memo to The Post. The material in the memo about Wilson's wife was based on notes taken by an INR analyst who attended a Feb. 19, 2002, meeting at the CIA where Wilson's intelligence-gathering trip to Niger was discussed. The memo was drafted June 10, 2003, for Undersecretary of State Marc Grossman, who asked to be brought up to date on INR's opposition to the White House view that Hussein was trying to buy uranium in Africa. The description of Wilson's wife and her role in the Feb. 19, 2002, meeting at the CIA was considered "a footnote" in a background paragraph in the memo, according to an official who was aware of the process. It records that the INR analyst at the meeting opposed Wilson's trip to Niger because the State Department, through other inquiries, already had disproved the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger. Attached to the INR memo were the notes taken by the senior INR analyst who attended the 2002 meeting at the CIA. On July 6, 2003, shortly after Wilson went public on NBC's "Meet the Press" and in The Post and the New York Times discussing his trip to Niger, the INR director at the time, Carl W. Ford Jr., was asked to explain Wilson's statements for Powell, according to sources familiar with the events. He went back and reprinted the June 10 memo but changed the addressee from Grossman to Powell. Ford last year appeared before the federal grand jury investigating the leak and described the details surrounding the INR memo, the sources said. Yesterday he was on vacation in Arkansas, according to his office. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| JBryan | Jul 21 2005, 03:57 AM Post #68 |
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I am the grey one
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What I see here is a memo that included a paragraph marked "secret" that contained, along with, presumably, a lot of other information, the name of Valerie Plame. No explicit classification of her identity as secret or of her as a covert agent. I assume Joe Wilson was mentioned as well since it was discussing his trip to Niger. Did he violate the law when he outed himself in his NYT op-ed? I see nothing here that disputes the notion that Valerie Plame's cover had been blown long ago or that she was not a covert agent at the time in question. We are simply asked to believe that her identity was a secret because her name appears twice in a seven sentence paragraph marked "secret". That is mighty thin. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jul 21 2005, 04:14 AM Post #69 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Actually, we are asked to believe a few things: 1. That the State Department believed her identity was secret. That's why the paragraph was marked "secret". 2. That the Wall Street Journal, which definitely does NOT have a liberal bias, believed that, as a result of that "secret" designation, information about Plame was supposed to be treated as "secret". 3. That, if she had blown her cover in 1999, as some sockpuppets would like to suggest, there would have been little reason for the BUSH State Department to place a "secret" designation on that paragraph in 2003. 4. That, contrary to what some here have said, the BUSH State Department "already had disproved the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger." 5. That anyone reading the memo should have known that they were not allowed to talk about Plame's job, because the paragraph in the memo dealing with her was marked "secret". Let's assume for a moment a few facts. There's some doubt about whether Plame's cover has been blown. You get a memo from the State Department with a paragraph marked "secret". You have a security clearance, so you know what that means, and you know what the consequences of revealing secret information are. If there's any doubt as to whether the information is properly "secret" ... and whatever else you can say, JB, clearly there was at a minimum doubt ... do you reveal it to a reporter? Is there any way in your right mind you can receive a memorandum clearly describing information related to her as secret, and then decide on your own, what the hell, no it isn't secret, I'll just ignore the rules regarding secret information and discuss it with a reporter? The only question left is whether Rove got and read the memo. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| JBryan | Jul 21 2005, 04:50 AM Post #70 |
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I am the grey one
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It is by no means clear that was why the paragraph was marked secret. It was seven sentences long and could have contained any number of other things that could be secret.
The WSJ editorial page is known to be right of center. The news reporting portion is an entirely different matter. They are known for their liberal bias.
See response to 1.
They did no such thing. The State Department may have been of that opinion but the allegation has, by no means, been disproved.
You may have a point here depending on what was actually contained in this paragraph. Something none of us can know. If her name simply appears without specific reference to anything else about her then it would not be so. Clearly, if this paragraph identified Valerie Plame as an operative, covert or not, and Karl Rove had read it then he should be fired. However, nothing here should lead us to believe that Valerie Plame was a covert operative. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jul 21 2005, 04:56 AM Post #71 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Wrong, as a matter of law. If the paragraph is marked secret, and if you receive the memorandum, you are required to treat everything in the paragraph as secret.
You will of course understand that your second sentence has nothing to do with your first one, since in the first one you were clear that it doesn't matter whether she was "covert or not". And that's really my point. If there's doubt, why the hell would Rove have exposed her? If we can have a months- or years-long debate over whether she was really covert, he shouldn't have revealed her name. He was in no position to make that judgment. If, as you say, he read the memo. But, if he didn't, how did he know all the relevant facts? That's still an open question. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| JBryan | Jul 21 2005, 05:10 AM Post #72 |
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I am the grey one
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This was really what I was responding to. From the beginning of this debate there has always been this sort of breathless concern about how her "outing" had damaged our national security and put lives in danger. It has been my (and others) contention that she was out a long time ago and there was nothing secret about who she was and where she worked. This article does nothing to dispute that. As you well know, our government classifies all sorts of people and things as "secret" that often make us wonder. It is not even clear that the intent here was to keep Valerie Plame's identity a secret. It just, as you say should be treated as secret since it was contained in the paragraph. That is not to say that revealing something marked secret even though well known is okay. Karl Rove says he learned of Valerie Plame's dentity from Bob Novak. If so then he was revealing something he thought was not a secret and seemed to be known by quite a few. If, on the other hand, he had read this memo before revealing her then he should be dealt with accordingly even though it was not really a secret and no harm was actually done. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jul 21 2005, 05:20 AM Post #73 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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As usual, once we parse our positions, we're not that far apart. However:
You will excuse me if I have some doubt. Rove also said categorically that he wasn't Cooper's source, until it was definitely proven that he was. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| JBryan | Jul 21 2005, 05:28 AM Post #74 |
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I am the grey one
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There are a lot of facts yet to be revealed and I do not rule out the possibility that Rove could be fired or even prosecuted. However, I find it premature to be calling for it at this stage. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Jolly | Jul 21 2005, 05:47 AM Post #75 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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The gentlemen who wrote the initial bill containing the law that Rove has alledgedly broke were on TV this past weekend. They both agreed that under the meaning of the law, Rove had not broken it, even in a worst case scenario. As I've said, much ado about nothing.... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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