Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 5
That depends on what the definition of 'leak' is; says Bush (in effect)
Topic Started: Jul 18 2005, 09:24 AM (1,153 Views)
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
I said earlier that I'd be equally happy if Bush waxed Clintonian on this or if Rove got fired. The former happened today.

But What never occurred to me is that both could happen.



In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Here's the story. Apparently, ethics are irrelevant in the Bush Administration; the standard for behavior is whether your conduct is criminal or not.

Bush Says He Would Fire Any Aides Who 'Committed a Crime'

By DAVID STOUT
Published: July 18, 2005 (NY Times)

WASHINGTON, July 18 - President Bush changed his stance today on his close adviser Karl Rove, stopping well short of promising that anyone in his administration who helped to unmask a C.I.A. officer would be fired.

"If someone committed a crime, they will no longer work in my administration," Mr. Bush said in response to a question, after declaring, "I don't know all the facts; I want to know all the facts."

For months, Mr. Bush and his spokesmen have said that anyone involved in the disclosure of the C.I.A. officer's identity would be dismissed. The president's apparent raising of the bar for dismissal today, to specific criminal conduct, comes amid mounting evidence that, at the very least, Mr. Rove provided backhanded confirmation of the C.I.A. officer's identity.

In the months after the name of the officer, Valerie Plame Wilson, was made public in July 2003, the White House said repeatedly that no one working for the administration was part of the disclosure.

Mrs. Wilson's husband, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, has asserted that his wife was unmasked, and her career consequently damaged, in retaliation for his criticism of the Bush administration's policy toward Iraq. He has also said he suspects that Mr. Rove, by all accounts one of the president's most trusted political advisers and an architect of his successful re-election strategy, had a role in the disclosure.

Matthew Cooper, a Time magazine reporter, says in a first-person account in this week's issue that Mr. Rove was the first person to tell him that Mr. Wilson's wife was an officer for the Central Intelligence Agency. Mr. Cooper writes that Mr. Rove used indirect language - not mentioning Mrs. Wilson by name, for instance - but that he supplied him information nonetheless.

The first journalist to disclose Mrs. Wilson's identity was the columnist Robert Novak, who has declined for two years to say whether he has testified to a federal grand jury investigating the leak.

Some Democrats have called for Mr. Bush to fire Mr. Rove, who is now the deputy White House chief of staff. The Democrats assert that Mr. Rove may have violated a federal law that bars the deliberate disclosure of the name of a C.I.A. agent.

The questions about Mr. Rove and the unmasking of Mrs. Wilson have dominated the political conversation in the capital, so much so that the issue came up today as President Bush was appearing with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of India at the White House.

Mr. Bush said he hopes the investigation will be over "very soon" and that people should reserve judgment until then.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
Y'all need to read more than the NYT.

If you would have watched McGlothlin last week, they had the video clip of Bush's initial stance. He said that if the law had been broken, the person would be fired.

The article in the NYT is erroneous. Bush's stance has not changed.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
Jolly - you cannot discount what his paid spokesman says on behalf of the administration. It is, in fact, the official position of the administration unless and until he (McClellan) come out and admits to having left the reservation.


Face it, man, president straight-talk turns out to be a pretty good parser of speech after all. :D :D :D
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
jon-nyc
Jul 18 2005, 09:48 AM
Jolly - you cannot discount what his paid spokesman says on behalf of the administration. It is, in fact, the official position of the administration unless and until he (McClellan) come out and admits to having left the reservation.


Face it, man, president straight-talk turns out to be a pretty good parser of speech after all. :D :D :D

I'm not speaking of a clip of some Press Secretary, but the initial comment of Bush, months ago, as videotaped during an impromptu in the Rose Garden. His position has not changed.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
Jolly - McClellan is authorized to speak for the administration and does so every singel day of the week. Unless and until he says he left the reservation on this, the fact remains that President Nuance refined his position.

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
You are sure stretching a point so thin it is almost invisible but stretch away. You are still a long way from "I never had sex with that woman. Not a single time".
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
Its a pretty significant point, actually. Leaking (or is it leeking?) the name of a CIA agent in order to punish a whistle-blower is a pretty big deal.

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
An allegation that is not supported by the facts.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
Seems to be an allegation confirmed by the facts.

Or are you still working off last weeks 'facts'?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
Confirmed by which facts? Please be specific. I have been.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
Matthew Coopers testimony to the grand jury was that Rove brought up the subject to him. Read time magazine, or, look at any one of the news organizations that reported on the Time story.

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
You call that proof? Why does that mean that his motive was to punish a "whistle blower" by outing his wife as a CIA agent? Especially when everyone who knew the woman knew she worked for the CIA.

It turns out that this "whistle blower" has done nothing but tell one lie after another and the more likely explanation was that Rove was trying to keep him from getting away with another one no matter who might have brought it up first.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
You may think he just brought up Wilson's wife because they ran out of other things to talk about and Rove had time to kill.

But given that Wilson had just called bullshit on the infamous 17 words in the SOTU address, I suspect otherwise.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
Quote:
 
You may think he just brought up Wilson's wife because they ran out of other things to talk about and Rove had time to kill.


Ididn't say that. Now you are putting words in my mouth.

Quote:
 
But given that Wilson had just called bullshit on the infamous 17 words in the SOTU address, I suspect otherwise.


He may have called bullshit but he was, himself, bullshitting. Anyone who peruses information available on the public record knows that.

"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
JBryan
Jul 18 2005, 05:13 PM
He may have called bullshit but he was, himself, bullshitting.

Rove would have been after him for the former, it seems to me.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
Look, I am not exactly a babe in the woods when it comes to politics. I have never stated that Karl Rove would never take revenge on someone politically but this one just does not add up. Deliberately (ostensibly) revealing an undercover operative for political revenge is just plain dumb. Does not seem in character with the Svengali-like, spawn-of-the-devil potrayal by those who are calling for his head.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
So then (putting aside what constitutes a 'leak', 'undercover', 'operative', etc.), why else do you think he would bring her up on the call to Cooper?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
Because Joe Wilson was alleging that he travelled to Niger at the behest of Dick Cheney's office (a documented lie). Rove was trying to refute that by telling him who was really behind his selection.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
She really wasn't high enough up in the CIA to send Wilson (who worked for State, didn't he?).

Plus, I can't imagine the detail of who sent him to be relevant to the picture Rove tries to manage. THe fact that the CIA had discredited those 17 words was the key fact Rove had to deal with.

(this is also my reply to your last comment on the other thread - the topics seem to be merging and i'm tired of going bac and forth)
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
Quote:
 
She really wasn't high enough up in the CIA to send Wilson (who worked for State, didn't he?).


Valerie Plame was high enough in that particular division (WMD analysis) to recommend her husband (who was not with State at the time) and recommend she did. Forcefully and in several different ways. You really need to read up on what is known about her involvement in her husbands selection.

Quote:
 
Plus, I can't imagine the detail of who sent him to be relevant to the picture Rove tries to manage. THe fact that the CIA had discredited those 17 words was the key fact Rove had to deal with.


Ah, but CIA did not discredit those 17 words. Joe Wilson did in an op-ed to the NYT saying that had CIA backing. That turned out not to be the case. CIA was not convinced one way or another with regard to Iraqi attempts to buy yellow cake in Niger and, in fact, there were some who debriefed Joe Wilson that tended to believe that his information even corroborated that notion.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rick Zimmer
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
QuirtEvans
Jul 18 2005, 10:36 AM
Here's the story. Apparently, ethics are irrelevant in the Bush Administration; the standard for behavior is whether your conduct is criminal or not.

Bush Says He Would Fire Any Aides Who 'Committed a Crime'

By DAVID STOUT
Published: July 18, 2005 (NY Times)

WASHINGTON, July 18 - President Bush changed his stance today on his close adviser Karl Rove, stopping well short of promising that anyone in his administration who helped to unmask a C.I.A. officer would be fired.

"If someone committed a crime, they will no longer work in my administration," Mr. Bush said in response to a question, after declaring, "I don't know all the facts; I want to know all the facts."

For months, Mr. Bush and his spokesmen have said that anyone involved in the disclosure of the C.I.A. officer's identity would be dismissed.

::snicker::

God I love this story!

All the stuff the right hated about Clinton is now being done by Bush.

And the right are all "waxing Clintonian."

Just reading all of the hair splitting, deep semantic analysis and back peddling in this thread alone makes this all worthwhile.

Such fun!

And in the end, Bush may lose his brain and Cheney may lose his.

[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
Bush hasn't changed his stance but the media have done a powerful job of spinning it like he has.

How do you "unmask" someone who is not even masked. Or was she wearing a mask as she drove through the front gate at the CIA every morning. It sure didn't fool her neighbors and a whole lot of other folks in Washington.

Stuff done by Clinton now done by Bush, Rick? You have got to be kidding.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
I find it rather amusing the liberals accuse Bush of "waxing Clintonian" -- how quickly they are willing to discard their former champion once he is no longer of any use to them, and happy to equate his name and his legacy with prevarication in order to get a few cheap shots in.

I guess the notion never darkened their brow that one can actually have principles in politics since they have do few examples from their own ranks.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
Bush hasn't changed his stance


I call BS on that one .. again.

Let's follow the steps.

1. McClellan says anyone involved in the leak would no longer be in the Administration. No mention of crimes.

2. McClellan is Bush's spokesman. He's authorized to speak for the President.

3. No one in the Bush Administration disavows what McClellan said about anyone involved in the leak, no one says that McClellan wasn't authorized to say that, no one tries to modify it in any way.

4. Indeed, when asked some time afterwards if he stands by the statement that anyone involved in the leak would be fired, Bush gives a one-word answer .... "Yes."

So, which of those statements is untrue? Because W is no longer saying that anyone involved in the leak will be canned, now he's saying anyone who has committed a crime will be canned. And that is a massive change in position.

As I said, ethics apparently mean nothing in the Bush Administration. As long as you haven't committed a criminal act, and as long as you're the President's buddy, your job is safe.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
ZetaBoards gives you all the tools to create a successful discussion community.
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 5