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Question for evolutionarians.; ...is that even a word?
Topic Started: Jul 17 2005, 08:31 AM (1,117 Views)
ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
garrett
Jul 19 2005, 09:31 PM
Buxtehude
Jul 19 2005, 09:06 PM
The bulk of Christianity considers blasphemy, heresy, and apostasy as the very worst of sins.

I think you're way off the mark with that statement.


I have to agree with Bux on this one (with several significant quals). It would have been better for him to have said "among the very worst". But first, Bux, please show me where the Catholics consider heresy and apostasy and blasphemy to be unforgivable.

These are indeed, very bad, but for instance sedition is the worst of sins against the public order since it destroys the common good necessary for us to live in harmony in order that we might seek the perfections of human life including religion (against which are blasphemy, apostasy and heresy.

Schism (a form of apostasy) is worse than heresy, since heresy is against the truth but schism is against love.

Buxtehude
Jul 20 2005, 04:02 AM
Quote:
 
I think you're way off the mark with that statement.


You do, do you? Pray enilighten this poor heathen.

See, I'll happily support my position.

The first five of the 10 commandments are all about not disobeying and/or rejecting God. He's jealous afterall.

Some of the largest Christian denominations consider heresy, blasphemy, and apostasy to be the only unforgivable sins. Mormonism and Catholicism come immedietly to mind and their easy to reference because they both have a central heirarchy. The Lutheran deriviates do as well. And the Anglican church and most of it's offshoots. The Quakers and all those guys do as well, but they believe in predestination so they don't REALLY count.

Murder? You can repent. Pedophilia? You can repent (and in some sects you even get travel bonuses for it. *snicker). Theft, rape, pillage... Yep you can repent for all those. But not the three I've mentioned. In fact, one might be able to pull out a few historical references to death and destruction on a massive scale just because of heresy and blasphemy - real or perceived.

So, still think I'm wrong or are you going to support your statement?


The argument for unforgivable sins was long put to rest. Even the sin of blasphemy or apostasy can be forgiven provided only that one sincerely repents.

You are positing, in fact, a Donatist position that was continually condemned from the Council of Arles (311) through 5th century (notably Augustine).Similarly, the unforgiveness of Novatianism for idolatry was condemned in the 3rd century, though both these sects (and many more sub sects of "enthusiasts") continued into the 6th century.

The meaning of "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is subject to interpretion, but no one has yet offered an absolute scenario where even this is unforgivable. You might consult Ambrose "On Repentance" to see the early disputations on the question.


Buxtehude
Jul 19 2005, 09:24 PM
Okay,
Quote:
 
Regardless, welcome Bux -- are you the sire of Dolly's delightful young Ian?


I'm pretty sure the kidlet's name is Liam. And in the immortal words of Shaggy, "It waddn't me".

Many thanks for the welcome.



Oops, my bad. Apologies.
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ivorythumper
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Buxtehude
Jul 19 2005, 09:02 PM
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and ill even listen to led zeppelin


Didn't you hear Pope Benedict? There's no way such a satanic band as Led Zepplin will ever get into heaven!

:rolleyes:

Citation please.
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ivorythumper
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The 89th Key
Jul 20 2005, 05:21 AM

...then again, I wouldn't expect Big Bangers to understand such abstract religious rhetoric.  :sombrero:

89th:

All thinking is abstract.

The topic is simply "religion".

We are all doing (or striving for) "rhetoric" whenever we communicate.

So what is your point? Simply to cross swords with Bux? I would put my money on him in that duel.
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The 89th Key
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Ivory, he would ask questions regarding God' rationale for certain actions or lack there of...and when he chooses not to accept answers found in the Bible, it's simply because he chooses not to understand the *abstract* answers surrounding God. For example if one said, what do you mean we'll live forever...certainly that's not true! It's because it's an abstract thought, and that one person isn't willing to accept certain conditions that aren't found on Earth. Everything has a beginning and an end on Earth, so living forever would understandably be an abstract thought, especially among those who choose not to believe in the Bible. See what I'm saying?
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ivorythumper
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The 89th Key
Jul 20 2005, 09:40 AM
Ivory, he would ask questions regarding God' rationale for certain actions or lack there of...and when he chooses not to accept answers found in the Bible, it's simply because he chooses not to understand the *abstract* answers surrounding God.


I doubt that it is "simply" for that reason. The bible is not an exhaustive accounting of God's revelation of himself, and it is not a self contained answer book to the problems that Bux has with religion. He may well "understand" the answers, but if these answers are not pursuasive to him, he would be doing violence to his intellect to accept them without proof. The mind rests in the truth. The mind cannot rest unless it finds truth. I have no idea of where Bux is coming from, other than a "narcistheist" from an articulate and well reasoned atheist POV. But he seems reasonably well read, and his obvious fascination with religion (inferred from his web site) leads me to think that he has not yet rested in atheism. I might be wrong, but it is usually ex-smokers who preach against tabacco; and so many therapists and counsellors hang their shingle after going through their own crises.

We'll see...
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The 89th Key
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ivorythumper
Jul 20 2005, 02:08 PM
but if these answers are not pursuasive to him, he would be doing violence to his intellect to accept them without proof.

Some abstract ideas, like suffering *forever* in Hell, are just that. And the Bible (nor anyone on Earth) has any proof that would even begin to convince an atheist that people do live forever in the afterlife...heaven or hell.

Perhaps "understand" is a wrong word to describe an atheist's lack of acceptance of an abstract, religious concept. When proof can only go so far, it's inherently detrimental to the discussion to try and convince an atheist of an abstract idea when there's limited (if any) evidence to back up such abstract claims that we wacko Christians make.
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ivorythumper
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The 89th Key
Jul 20 2005, 12:37 PM
... we wacko Christians make.

What's this "we", kemosabe?
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The 89th Key
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Oh sorry, I didn't mean to include myself in that nominative first person plural pronoun. :P

...the title is all yours. :thumb:

Minus the fact that you're the smartest theologian on this board. :yes:
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