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Question for evolutionarians.; ...is that even a word?
Topic Started: Jul 17 2005, 08:31 AM (1,119 Views)
pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
Isn't it wonderful to be smart?

Of course, the alternatives are that (1) I really know nothing at all, and God is controlling my fingers to type whatever He wants me to type, or (2) my typing is the result of random firings in my brain, and everything I type is completely random.
Sam
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Buxtehude
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Pianojerome,

Faboo question. Predestination vs. Preordination, eh?

Alrighty. Before I reply, how are you defining "omniscient"?

89th,

Quote:
 
The ones you already asked. Try to keep up.

I'll give you a hint, check out the verses Gen. 1:1 through Rev. 22:21


Way too vague for the medium we're working with. I'll entertain ANYTHING if you're more specific but I HOPE you're not thinking this is a valid defense of your position.
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
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You're a smart guy Sam. 

yes but according to u, sam (and me) will get roasted on a spit when the time comes...
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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The 89th Key
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Buxtehude
Jul 20 2005, 12:47 AM
89th,

Quote:
 
The ones you already asked. Try to keep up.

I'll give you a hint, check out the verses Gen. 1:1 through Rev. 22:21


Way too vague for the medium we're working with. I'll entertain ANYTHING if you're more specific but I HOPE you're not thinking this is a valid defense of your position.

You say you know the Bible, yet you don't know the answer to the most basic of questions regarding God.

You're determining your own curious parameter, Bux.

...like I said, try to keep up.

Bed time for me! :snooze:
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The 89th Key
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bachophile
Jul 20 2005, 12:47 AM
Quote:
 
You're a smart guy Sam. 

yes but according to u, sam (and me) will get roasted on a spit when the time comes...

God will judge you, sam, and I.

I just hope we all get to sit at the welcome table together, believe me or not. :)
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Buxtehude
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You say you know the Bible, yet you don't know the answer to the most basic of questions regarding God.


Oh, I KNOW the answers you WANT me to regurgitate. I find it odd that considering the vast number of Christian sects that the very thought of someone dismissing the entire notion of godliness is such an anathema to you kids. But that's to be expected. I mean, really. You're so convinced you're right that anyone who disagrees is bound for eternal torment. How's that for certainty?

But again, I'll happily fold, spindle, and multilate any doctrine you'd care to bring forward...

Quote:
 
You're determining your own curious parameter, Bux.


I prefer to think of it as the Buxtehude Axiom. Has a certain ring to it, wouldn't you agree?
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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bachophile
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sure issac.

ill sit with u.

pass the salt please.

and ill even listen to led zeppelin if thats whats on the radio in heaven. or maybe its just on the stairway to heaven.

in heaven itself im afarid they will only be playing bach...
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Buxtehude
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and ill even listen to led zeppelin


Didn't you hear Pope Benedict? There's no way such a satanic band as Led Zepplin will ever get into heaven!
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
Buxtehude
Jul 20 2005, 12:54 AM
I find it odd that considering the vast number of Christian sects that the very thought of someone dismissing the entire notion of godliness is such an anathema to you kids. But that's to be expected. I mean, really. You're so convinced you're right that anyone who disagrees is bound for eternal torment. How's that for certainty?

1. There are many Christians who would disagree with that statement - that anyone who doesn't believe in God goes to Hell

2. There are many Christians who are so unsure about God and religion, that they spend their entire lives searching for the "truth"

3. There are even some Christians who would say that questioning God's existance and asking all of these questions that you bring up are essential for religious development.




I'm not Christian, but I would match these three points: disbelief does not call for eternal damnation; religion is full of uncertainty; and questioning God's existance and one's own faith is essential for spiritual development.
Sam
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pianojerome
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bachophile
Jul 20 2005, 12:59 AM
sure issac.

ill sit with u.

pass the salt please.

Me too.

Just as long as they don't serve any gelatin products.
Sam
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apple
one of the angels
bachophile
Jul 19 2005, 11:14 PM
apple!!! for such a bach afficianado, u dont know about buxthehude???

when i was in arnstadt in my bach tour, i though about poor little johann walking all the way north to lubeck to hear buxtehude.

"In 1705 Bach walked 250 miles from Arnstadt to attend the Abendmusiken and overstayed his leave by three months. Buxtehude was known in his lifetime chiefly as an organ virtuoso and teacher whose students included Bruhns. In a letter to Forkel, Carl Philipp Emanuel identified Buxtehude as a composer whose works his father much admired. "


I'm not so desparate that I sit around reading biographies.. maybe when I get done with the 48. Now I recognize the name. :rolleyes2:

(btw- I bet Bach got a few rides)
it behooves me to behold
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Buxtehude
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Perhaps not. But I hardly think a minority view point is relevant.

Especially since the NT is pretty clear on the topic. There is no path to heaven except through acceptance of JC as one's own personal savior.

(Using inside info here) - I also think you're applying your own faith's predilictions to Christianity. A disservice to yours, if you don't mind me saying.

The bulk of Christianity considers blasphemy, heresy, and apostasy as the very worst of sins.

Besides, the first five of the big ten are all about NOT denying god.

How now, brown cow?
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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Buxtehude
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Quote:
 
I'm not so desparate that I sit around reading biographies.. maybe when I get done with the 48. Now I recognize the name.

(btw- I bet Bach got a few rides)


Much better story if he didn't get any rides AND lost his job though, eh?
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
apple
Jul 20 2005, 01:05 AM
bachophile
Jul 19 2005, 11:14 PM
apple!!! for such a bach afficianado, u dont know about buxthehude???

when i was in arnstadt in my bach tour, i though about poor little johann walking all the way north to lubeck to hear buxtehude.

"In 1705 Bach walked 250 miles from Arnstadt to attend the Abendmusiken and overstayed his leave by three months. Buxtehude was known in his lifetime chiefly as an organ virtuoso and teacher whose students included Bruhns. In a letter to Forkel, Carl Philipp Emanuel identified Buxtehude as a composer whose works his father much admired. "


I'm not so desparate that I sit around reading biographies.. maybe when I get done with the 48. Now I recognize the name. :rolleyes2:

(btw- I bet Bach got a few rides)

"A little later, Bach asked permission from his employers to travel to Lubeck to hear the great Danish organist Dietrich Buxtehude. They weren't terribly keen on the idea, but they gave him four weeks off anyway. Bach set out, again on foot. It was more than 200 miles, but he made it somehow. (Playing organ pedals must be good for the leg muscles.)

"Bach had a wonderful time in Lubeck and was thrilled to bits by Buxtehude's playing. Since Buxtehude was thinking of retiring, he offered his job to Bach, who was 20. The only catch was that Bach had to marry Buxtehude's daughter Anna Margreta, who was nearly 30. (It was a package deal.) This seemed perfectly reasonable to Buxtehude, since he had done exactly the same thing to get the job from his predecessor, Franz Tunder. (There's one born every minute.) Bach, however, was not so thrilled by the offer. He said thanks but no thanks. Two other great musicians of the time - Johann Matheson and George Frideric Handel - also turned down the offer of the job complete with wife. It wasn't the sort of fringe benefit they had in mind. (I know you're dying to know: the job (and the daughter) eventually went to a man named Johann Christian Schieferdecker. He didn't amount to much.

"What with one thing and another, Bach spent four months in Lubeck. When he got back to Arnstadt the church authorities were a bit angry, to put it mildly. Furthermore, Bach had come back with all sorts of fancy ideas about playing hymn tunes with lots of extra notes and ornamentation. This annoyed the congregation, since they had trouble finding the melody. (Nobody likes a showoff.) They told him to cut it out and keep things simple. So he did. Too simple. (That will teach them to meddle with genius...)"


-- David W. Barber, Bach, Beethoven, and the Boys: Music History As It Ought To Be Taught
Sam
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pianojerome
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Buxtehude
Jul 20 2005, 01:06 AM
(Using inside info here) - I also think you're applying your own faith's predilictions to Christianity.  A disservice to yours, if you don't mind me saying.

The bulk of Christianity considers blasphemy, heresy, and apostasy as the very worst of sins.

Besides, the first five of the big ten are all about NOT denying god.

How now, brown cow?

Possibly.

We've discussed religion here many times. I wouldn't make such claims about Chrisitians believing this or that otherwise. Those three points I mentioned above match the beliefs of many Christians on this forum. (I think.)
Sam
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Buxtehude
Jul 19 2005, 06:49 PM
And for the record, "evolutionarians" isn't a word. We prefer the term "intelligent folks".

Don't we all. :rolleyes:

And no points for originality:
jon-nyc
Jul 17 2005, 04:17 PM
To you first question "evolutionarians., ...is that even a word?", we prefer to call ourselves rational thinking people.


Regardless, welcome Bux -- are you the sire of Dolly's delightful young Ian?

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Buxtehude
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Okay, I'm turning into a pumpkin but I will respond to the trivial post....

Not really going for originality when the need isn't there....

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Regardless, welcome Bux -- are you the sire of Dolly's delightful young Ian?


I'm pretty sure the kidlet's name is Liam. And in the immortal words of Shaggy, "It waddn't me".

Many thanks for the welcome.
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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garrett
Middle Aged Carp
Buxtehude
Jul 19 2005, 09:06 PM
The bulk of Christianity considers blasphemy, heresy, and apostasy as the very worst of sins.

I think you're way off the mark with that statement.
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Buxtehude
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Quote:
 
I think you're way off the mark with that statement.


You do, do you? Pray enilighten this poor heathen.

See, I'll happily support my position.

The first five of the 10 commandments are all about not disobeying and/or rejecting God. He's jealous afterall.

Some of the largest Christian denominations consider heresy, blasphemy, and apostasy to be the only unforgivable sins. Mormonism and Catholicism come immedietly to mind and their easy to reference because they both have a central heirarchy. The Lutheran deriviates do as well. And the Anglican church and most of it's offshoots. The Quakers and all those guys do as well, but they believe in predestination so they don't REALLY count.

Murder? You can repent. Pedophilia? You can repent (and in some sects you even get travel bonuses for it. *snicker). Theft, rape, pillage... Yep you can repent for all those. But not the three I've mentioned. In fact, one might be able to pull out a few historical references to death and destruction on a massive scale just because of heresy and blasphemy - real or perceived.

So, still think I'm wrong or are you going to support your statement?
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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The 89th Key
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Buxtehude
Jul 20 2005, 12:54 AM
I prefer to think of it as the Buxtehude Axiom. Has a certain ring to it, wouldn't you agree?

I agree...sounds perfect for someone so insecure.
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The 89th Key
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Buxtehude
Jul 20 2005, 08:02 AM
Murder? You can repent. Pedophilia? You can repent (and in some sects you even get travel bonuses for it. *snicker). Theft, rape, pillage... Yep you can repent for all those. But not the three I've mentioned. In fact, one might be able to pull out a few historical references to death and destruction on a massive scale just because of heresy and blasphemy - real or perceived.

Bux, if you didn't know...you can repent for ANY sin. God will judge your heart, and see what your true feelings are and if you're truly asking for forgiveness.

...then again, I wouldn't expect Big Bangers to understand such abstract religious rhetoric. :sombrero:
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Buxtehude
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Bux, if you didn't know...you can repent for ANY sin. God will judge your heart, and see what your true feelings are and if you're truly asking for forgiveness.


That's a matter of interpretation and dogma. YOUR version of Christianity may. But look again at what I originally wrote: "The bulk of Christianity considers blasphemy, heresy, and apostasy as the very worst of sins." Nothing in that statement - which is the basis of these further arguments implies for a second that universal Christian dogma (as if there was such a thing) doesn't allow for repentence for these. What I SAID was that they are considered amongst the worst of sins and for some crazy reason folks are disagreeing.

Quote:
 
...then again, I wouldn't expect Big Bangers to understand such abstract religious rhetoric.


*snicker. I think I'll let one bit o' that comment just pass... Abstract religious rhetoric? Hardly. Abstract is discussing the difference between predestination and preordination or the requirements for absolute morality. If this is abstract to you then I'm going to be very bored.
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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The 89th Key
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Quote:
 
"The bulk of Christianity considers blasphemy, heresy, and apostasy as the very worst of sins." Nothing in that statement - which is the basis of these further arguments implies for a second that universal Christian dogma (as if there was such a thing) doesn't allow for repentence for these.


And yet you contradict yourself when you said:

Quote:
 
Murder? You can repent. Pedophilia? You can repent (and in some sects you even get travel bonuses for it. *snicker). Theft, rape, pillage... Yep you can repent for all those. But not the three I've mentioned.


Pick a side already...who are you, John Kerry?

Secondly:

Quote:
 
Abstract religious rhetoric? Hardly.


Since you embarassed yourself earlier by claiming to have read the bible, yet you didn't know why evil was in the world, why God would allow eternal suffering, etc...

...it seems the forgiveness of a motley of sins, be it stealing to murder, to blasphemy....is a very abstract concept to you.

Like I said...it would be best if you started reading Gen 1:1 and continue until you see the back cover. ;)
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Buxtehude
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And yet you contradict yourself when you said:

QUOTE
Murder? You can repent. Pedophilia? You can repent (and in some sects you even get travel bonuses for it. *snicker). Theft, rape, pillage... Yep you can repent for all those. But not the three I've mentioned.


Fair enough. I did. But that's really just semantics because you know what? I CAN find a precedent in the multitude of Christian sects that'll support my position. Does it fall in with your particular perspective? Nope. Does that make any difference whatsoever to the content and intent of the post? Nope.

Tell you what, answer this question: Am I wrong in my interpretation that the denial of God is considered one of the worst sins? If you believe I am incorrect, address my errors. If you agree with me (as hard as that may be) then either acknowledge it or stop nit picking for the sake of nit picking. Deal?

Quote:
 
Since you embarassed yourself earlier by claiming to have read the bible, yet you didn't know why evil was in the world, why God would allow eternal suffering, etc...


Oh, I am aware of the facile explanation provided in Sunday school. But in my far from humble opinion I think the explanation is absurd when one considers the supposed properties of your god.

Quote:
 
...it seems the forgiveness of a motley of sins, be it stealing to murder, to blasphemy....is a very abstract concept to you.


Not abstract. Pointless and unnecessary, certainly. But not abstract.

Quote:
 
Like I said...it would be best if you started reading Gen 1:1 and continue until you see the back cover.


Has this retort to every debate ever worked for you? See, the fallacy in it is that you assume that once someone reads the bible there is no other option available to them other than to agree with your point of view. News flash, boy-o, it ain't so. That being said, I throw down the gauntlet again. I'll happily address any doctrinal item you care to discuss. Or not. It's up to you. But telling me to "read the bible and don't stop until you see my point of view" isn't how this game is played.

Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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The 89th Key
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I CAN find a precedent in the multitude of Christian sects that'll support my position. Does it fall in with your particular perspective? Nope.


That's a silly argument. Anything can be found in any major organization. That's like saying I can check all the various democracies of the world and find someone who supports fascism.

Quote:
 
Tell you what, answer this question: Am I wrong in my interpretation that the denial of God is considered one of the worst sins? If you believe I am incorrect, address my errors. If you agree with me (as hard as that may be) then either acknowledge it or stop nit picking for the sake of nit picking. Deal?


First of all, it wasn't nit picking.

In one post you said that three sins couldn't be forgiven, and in another you said that all sins could. That was a major flaw in your argument.

Secondly, I believe God ranks all sins the same...if you don't repent for 1 sin or 1,000 sins, you're still a sinner.

But from my POV, I think denying God is the biggest sin if I had to choose. But dont read too much into that.

That's like me saying which is worse, the bullet or the attacking army. Obviously the army since they are the source of the bullets. If you deny God, then you probably have a good chance of committing many more sins.

But in the end...all sins are bad, there's no point to rank them. Just some are the source of others.

Quote:
 
Oh, I am aware of the facile explanation provided in Sunday school. But in my far from humble opinion I think the explanation is absurd when one considers the supposed properties of your god.


HENCE my mention of abstract concepts not understood by Big Bangers.

You don't like God's rationale for evil being the world? Fine. But what the Bible says is still the correct and ONLY answer.

Again, regarding your two other segments...if you don't like what the Bible says, that's fine...but it does address each of your questions.


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