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Question for evolutionarians.; ...is that even a word?
Topic Started: Jul 17 2005, 08:31 AM (1,120 Views)
FrankM
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Steve,

Since this isn’t exactly a private conversation between us I just want to state for the record that I find you and I to be close on a lot of topics. Often it comes down to using different terms to describe similar concepts and viewpoints.

Ultimately I think my biggest problem in the topic is with the use of the term ID, since "intelligence" here implies a narrow (and, to me, arrogant) definition of the term.

Further, everyone knows what’s really going on with the desperate and progressively more outrageous, mindless, attacks on science. It’s a flagrant violation of the separation between church and state and I would literally go to war with these closet creationists and nuke them to kingdom come before I’d let them subvert this crucial ingredient of our system.

In any event, if you and I could substitute some alternative term, such as maybe partitioned evolution (yeah I know that’s pretty bad but it’s the best I can come up with on the fly), then we could proceed constructively. But the truth is I’m tapped out on this subject. About a week or so ago, I posted my take on it. In the process I effectively distanced myself from both extremes in the discussion. For now at least. I‘ll just leave it at that.

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The 89th Key
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Frank, ID stands for Intelligent Design, not intelligence. Sorry...not sure if you just made a typo, but I think it's a significant difference.

Either way, "Intelligent" in the phrase refers to God, that is, someone who is very aware of whats going on and directly caused the creation of the universe....as opposed to the "random" nature of the Big Bang theory.

I apologize if that post was futile...I'm sure you already knew that and I just misread your post. :)
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FrankM
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Thanks 89th.

No, it was just sloppiness on my part. Sometimes I rush and don't proofread what I wrote. But, yes, we are referring to the same thing.

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Buxtehude
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Let's say God did create the entire universe from nothing.

Therefore physics, as we mortals know them, aren't applicable to God.

Thus, don't you think it's possible for God to have made the Earth instantaneously with materials (such as sedimentary strata, and other objects that support evolution via carbon dating) that qualify as 6 billion years old because in fact He just made the chemical compositions of said material to look that way to our scientists?


Anything is possible, obviously. But isn't this a bit of a strawman? In order to address your silly question one must give you the benefit of the doubt on the whole existence of god thing. And that's just inane. So let's turn it around, shall we?

For all you creationists... Let's say God DOESN'T exist.

Therefore all the silliness written in the bible was written by patriarchs who desperately wanted to hold onto their power.

Thus don't you think it's possible that you're propogating a myth generated by power hungry men who want nothing more than obedience and money from you and yours?

Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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Buxtehude
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And for the record, "evolutionarians" isn't a word. We prefer the term "intelligent folks".
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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The 89th Key
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Buxtehude
Jul 19 2005, 10:38 PM
Quote:
 
Let's say God did create the entire universe from nothing.

Therefore physics, as we mortals know them, aren't applicable to God.

Thus, don't you think it's possible for God to have made the Earth instantaneously with materials (such as sedimentary strata, and other objects that support evolution via carbon dating) that qualify as 6 billion years old because in fact He just made the chemical compositions of said material to look that way to our scientists?


Anything is possible, obviously. But isn't this a bit of a strawman? In order to address your silly question one must give you the benefit of the doubt on the whole existence of god thing. And that's just inane. So let's turn it around, shall we?

For all you creationists... Let's say God DOESN'T exist.

Therefore all the silliness written in the bible was written by patriarchs who desperately wanted to hold onto their power.

Thus don't you think it's possible that you're propogating a myth generated by power hungry men who want nothing more than obedience and money from you and yours?

What's better?

To believe in a God that might be there, which doesn't hurt anything, and could only be positive for those who believe?

Or to not believe in a God who might be there and could only be negative for those who don't believe.

Damn, how come every debate we have regarding Intelligent Design vs. The Big Bang Theory eventually finds it's way to a reference to Occam's Razor? :P

Thanks though, for answering my question. Since it's possible that there's a God, and you say that anything possible regarding his "behavior"...I agree with you. I think it's possible for God to have created Earthly materials to have the qualities of objects that have been here for billions of years, using His wisdom to realize that perhaps an Earth-esque organism can not sustain herself unless certain provisions regarding nature are directly put in place.
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Buxtehude
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What's better?

To believe in a God that might be there, which doesn't hurt anything, and could only be positive for those who believe?

Or to not believe in a God who might be there and could only be negative for those who don't believe.


Call me crazy, there's this thing called intellectual honesty that keeps getting in the way whenever I consider whoring myself to this particular argument.

Quote:
 
Damn, how come every debate we have regarding Intelligent Design vs. The Big Bang Theory eventually finds it's way to a reference to Occam's Razor? :P


Well, it IS relevant, wouldn't you agree? I mean, what's more likely? That there's a supreme being with awesome cosmic powers that generated a complex and vibrant Cosmos that directly violates his written WORD - a supreme being that has NO origin whatsoever (unless you believe the Mormons) that has created everything - or that there's a rational, scientific explanation that doesn't involve a fairy tale? Silly me, but adding the diety seems to be a bit more convoluted.

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Thanks though, for answering my question. Since it's possible that there's a God


Possible. Not likely. But possible.

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and you say that anything possible regarding his "behavior"...I agree with you.


You DON'T agree with me. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. If there IS a god as defined by your narrow POV then it ought to be able to do anything. But alas, he doesn't. god doesn't even appear to be inclined to lift a toe hair to help out his creations.. But that's beside the point.
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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apple
one of the angels
what kind of name is Bustehude? out of curiousity.. welcome

you need to come help me debate the Creative ID ers in Kansas .

it behooves me to behold
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The 89th Key
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Quote:
 
You DON'T agree with me. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. If there IS a god as defined by your narrow POV then it ought to be able to do anything. But alas, he doesn't. god doesn't even appear to be inclined to lift a toe hair to help out his creations.. But that's beside the point.


I was going to reply, but that last paragraph clearly shows your ignorance.

I've researched both the scientific and religious aspects of evolution, perhaps you should do the same.

...and don't say you have, as you obviously haven't; per your last paragraph and currently this first one. :thumb:
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Buxtehude
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what kind of name is Bustehude? out of curiousity.. welcome


umm... That'd be a reference to Dietrick Buxtehude - the Guy that caused Bach to almost lose his gig 'cause he wanted to see him so badly....

Many thanks for the welcome! We'll see if your board mates share that welcome, eh?

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you need to come help me debate the Creative ID ers in Kansas .


Kansas?!?!?! Oi! As much as I'd love to, I'll pass. Been there, done that. Never again.
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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The 89th Key
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Of course I welcome you very much as well Buxtehude! Seriously! :D

...your presence should make this fun.
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bachophile
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apple!!! for such a bach afficianado, u dont know about buxthehude???

when i was in arnstadt in my bach tour, i though about poor little johann walking all the way north to lubeck to hear buxtehude.

"In 1705 Bach walked 250 miles from Arnstadt to attend the Abendmusiken and overstayed his leave by three months. Buxtehude was known in his lifetime chiefly as an organ virtuoso and teacher whose students included Bruhns. In a letter to Forkel, Carl Philipp Emanuel identified Buxtehude as a composer whose works his father much admired. "
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Buxtehude
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I was going to reply, but that last paragraph clearly shows your ignorance.

I've researched both the scientific and religious aspects of evolution, perhaps you should do the same.

...and don't say you have, as you obviously haven't; per your last paragraph and currently this first one.


Well I seriously doubt you have an academic background in any relevant discipline (and to be fair, neither do I) so I think trying to play the authoritarian game is kinda pointless. Rather, it's much more entertaining to delve into the ideological points of the issue. Wouldn't you agree?

So. That said, how does my statement indicate that I'm ignorant? Please enlighten me. Oh, and for the record, simply stating that since I don't agree with you I'm ignorant doesn't really help your position.

Oh, and many thanks for the welcome.
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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The 89th Key
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Quote:
 
If there IS a god as defined by your narrow POV


How is it narrow? Generally speaking, I find those with faith actually have a "wide" POV...willing to accept things that aren't as concrete, as well...concrete.

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But alas, he doesn't. god doesn't even appear to be inclined to lift a toe hair to help out his creations..


The fact that you don't know that God does care, love, and help out his creations...is idiotic.

If you don't believe in God, fine...not my fate. But the fact that you don't know probably the most basic quality of God - His love for us - would lead one to believe you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Buxtehude
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How is it narrow? Generally speaking, I find those with faith actually have a "wide" POV...willing to accept things that aren't as concrete, as well...concrete.


Umm... You're missing the point. Allow me to share an allegory: You can take a guy in the field and show him a better way to plow a field but tell him his god isn't the right one and he'll light you on fire. Narrow. 'nuff said.

Quote:
 
The fact that you don't know that God does care, love, and help out his creations...is idiotic.

If you don't believe in God, fine...not my fate. But the fact that you don't know probably the most basic quality of God - His love for us - would lead one to believe you have no idea what you're talking about.


Then be a dear and explain the concept of eternal torment? Or the existence of evil? Or the fact that really bad things happen to good people? If god really cared why does this stuff happen?
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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The 89th Key
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Read the bible. I already have...you should try it! :thumb:

I GUARANTEE your answers are in there, I've read and studied them and could just tell you...but I think if you found them on your own, you might learn a more valuable lesson than if I just told you the answers. Plus I'm about to go to bed...long day tomorrow.

Note: Since I know you won't read the Bible...just stick around, these topics come up all the time in here and far more intelligent people than I address them far more articulately than I. Dwain and Ivory, for example.
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Buxtehude
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Read the bible. I already have...you should try it!


Come on, boy-o! What good atheist who decides to stick it to you kidlets HASN'T read the bible?

Now would you like me to list off the instances of really awful and petulant behavior of your god detailed in the bible to refresh your memory or would you prefer to simply say, "my bad"?
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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dolmansaxlil
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Posted Image
"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson

My Flickr Photostream


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The 89th Key
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Awww, what a hole you have made for yourself.

You claim to know the Bible, yet you can't answer some very basic questions about God. :(

I'll pray for you. :yes:
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pianojerome
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Umm...  You're missing the point.  Allow me to share an allegory:  You can take a guy in the field and show him a better way to plow a field but tell him his god isn't the right one and he'll light you on fire.  Narrow.  'nuff said.


... Only the few radicals would light you on fire. Most would just say, "OK. Thanks for showing me how to plow my field better."

Quote:
 
Then be a dear and explain the concept of eternal torment?  Or the existence of evil?  Or the fact that really bad things happen to good people?  If god really cared why does this stuff happen?


Good questions. Here's another one (or two, or three... they're all related):

"Suppose there is a God. Does he control every single one of our actions, or do we actually have control over what we do? Do we have the power to do whatever we want to do, whether what we want to do is to help others and do good deeds, or if what we want to do is evil and harmful to others?"
Sam
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Buxtehude
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Awww, what a hole you have made for yourself.

You claim to know the Bible, yet you can't answer some very basic questions about God.


Oh, I can answer 'em the way you want me too. But I see no reason too because there's nothing to support the position. Nada. Zilch. Zip. Zero.

But in the spirit of fair play, what would you like me to answer?

(and, btw, that was a delightful bit of redirection from the topic at hand. Too bad it's ineffective.)

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I'll pray for you


Oh?
Sister, they don't know what to do with one of me.

-- Riddick
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The 89th Key
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Reminds me of a movie...Free Willy. ;)

I believe that God knows everything that is going to happen, yes.

...but He doesn't control it.
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Buxtehude
Jul 20 2005, 12:39 AM
But in the spirit of fair play, what would you like me to answer?

The ones you already asked. Try to keep up. ;)

I'll give you a hint, check out the verses Gen. 1:1 through Rev. 22:21. :thumb:
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
God doesn't control our actions, but he certainly influences us. We see miracles every day.

Of course, these "hints" don't always prevent evil from permeating our world...
Sam
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You're a smart guy Sam. :)
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