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Westboro Baptist Church Thanks God; for London tube bombings
Topic Started: Jul 11 2005, 01:37 AM (3,068 Views)
Rick Zimmer
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Larry
Jul 18 2005, 05:45 PM
Rick, do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God?
If so, do you believe he was the only one, or were there others?
If you believe that he was the only Son of God, do you believe that he meant what he said?

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

I also believe that non-Christians are rewarded with heaven the same as I am.

If God judges them worthy, I certainly cannot say they are unworthy. First, it's not my call and secondly I am certainly not going to say God is wrong since, after all, it is His plan for salvation.

Do you believe non-Christians can get to heaven Larry? If so, on what basis?
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Rick Zimmer
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Dwain Lee
Jul 18 2005, 07:52 PM

Not to throw gasoline on the fire here, but there is an obvious Catch-22 in this passage. Of course those who do not have the law, but rather, the law "written in their hearts" will be judged by their adherence to that "natural" law that they hold ideal - but, just like everyone else, and all others holding their own ideal law written on their hearts, they will be found lacking in their adherence to it - just like me. That's why I need to know of the redemption offered through Christ, and why they do, too. That's why Jesus instructed us to spread his good news to all the world.

But Dwain, why do they need to know of the redemption offered through Christ in order to benefit from Christ's redemptive act?

Do you believe non-Christians can get to heaven, Dwain? If so, on what basis?
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Larry asked:
If so, do you believe he was the only one, or were there others?

Rick answered:
Yes.

Yes, you believe he was the only Son of God, or yes you believe there were others?

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Rick Zimmer
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Larry
Jul 18 2005, 10:28 PM
Larry asked:
If so, do you believe he was the only one, or were there others?

Rick answered:
Yes.

Yes, you believe he was the only Son of God, or yes you believe there were others?

Yes I believe he is the only Son of God.

Now, before any further discussion between us, Larry, please answer my questions. I have answered each of yours.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Rick Zimmer
Jul 18 2005, 09:09 PM
But Dwain, why do they need to know of the redemption offered through Christ in order to benefit from Christ's redemptive act?

Do you believe non-Christians can get to heaven, Dwain? If so, on what basis?

I believe that anyone who gets to heaven does so strictly by the grace of God in creating a vehicle for them to do so, completely independent of the individual's own ability to live a life worthy of achieving it for himself or herself; and by the faith of the individual which allows them to both comprehend this reality and live a life exemplifying proper gratitude for this otherwise impossible gift.

So what does that mean? Do people who never heard of Jesus Christ go to heaven? Yes, by the grace of God and by faith - just as did Abraham, Moses, and all the people of faith who lived before Christ, and it remains so. I know this because this is what scripture tells me. I also know that scripture - Christ himself - has instructed us to spread the good news of his resurrection and redemption to all the world, because it is the best - the ultimate - illustration of God's love for mankind, his redemptive act toward all mankind, and the way for all mankind to participate in this redemption.

In other words, those who are referred to in Romans 2:12 will be judged just like those who have the Law - they cannot adhere to even their own "law," so their redemption must be by faith, just as with the Christian, or anyone else. But without knowing the gospel of Christ, their attempts at faith and knowing God's true message to them is severely hobbled, something like trying to run a marathon with a badly sprained ankle. Or maybe more correctly, it's like trying to find your way out of a cave without a map or a light. Successfully navigating one's way out of the cave under such circumstances would be far more rare, and difficult, without a guide that knows the way and has a light to illuminate the right pathway and avoid the dangers along the way.

Jesus Christ says "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life;" and "I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in darkness, but will have the Light of Life."

Sharing that message with others will ultimately get more of us all out of the cave safely.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Rick Zimmer
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Dwain Lee
Jul 19 2005, 04:46 AM
Rick Zimmer
Jul 18 2005, 09:09 PM
But Dwain, why do they need to know of the redemption offered through Christ in order to benefit from Christ's redemptive act? 

Do you believe non-Christians can get to heaven, Dwain?  If so, on what basis?

I believe that anyone who gets to heaven does so strictly by the grace of God in creating a vehicle for them to do so, completely independent of the individual's own ability to live a life worthy of achieving it for himself or herself; and by the faith of the individual which allows them to both comprehend this reality and live a life exemplifying proper gratitude for this otherwise impossible gift.

So what does that mean? Do people who never heard of Jesus Christ go to heaven? Yes, by the grace of God and by faith - just as did Abraham, Moses, and all the people of faith who lived before Christ, and it remains so. I know this because this is what scripture tells me. I also know that scripture - Christ himself - has instructed us to spread the good news of his resurrection and redemption to all the world, because it is the best - the ultimate - illustration of God's love for mankind, his redemptive act toward all mankind, and the way for all mankind to participate in this redemption.

In other words, those who are referred to in Romans 2:12 will be judged just like those who have the Law - they cannot adhere to even their own "law," so their redemption must be by faith, just as with the Christian, or anyone else. But without knowing the gospel of Christ, their attempts at faith and knowing God's true message to them is severely hobbled, something like trying to run a marathon with a badly sprained ankle. Or maybe more correctly, it's like trying to find your way out of a cave without a map or a light. Successfully navigating one's way out of the cave under such circumstances would be far more rare, and difficult, without a guide that knows the way and has a light to illuminate the right pathway and avoid the dangers along the way.

Jesus Christ says "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life;" and "I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in darkness, but will have the Light of Life."

Sharing that message with others will ultimately get more of us all out of the cave safely.

Dwain,

You being of a Calvinistic bent and I being of a Papist bent will, of course, differ on the faith alone/faith with works concept of salvation, but we both agree on the bottom line of much of what you have written. So, let us put aside the fact you are wrong :D and move on from there.

I do not disagree with the idea that we Christians have been called to preach the Good News of the Gospel. I have said so in my comments to the Thumpster.

However, as I also said to the Thumpster, if God Himself is applying the redemptive grace of Christ's saving act to non-Christains, we must be very careful not to make our interpretation of the basis upon which he does this too narrow since we really have no means of knowing the ways of God in judging individual human beings. Indeed, I question whether we have any basis upon which to make it narrower at all than we make it for Christians.

It is one thing to say that someone has done something we perceive to be evil. It is another to assume what God's judgement will be of that individual. It is another thing altogether to assume that God's judgement is altered because someone is a good person, just not the right kind of good person.

Thus, I disagree with your final comment that "sharing that message with others will ultimately get more of us all out of the cave safely." I believe this simply smacks of a Christian arrogance, implying a standard of judgement on non-Christians which we have no basis to apply.

I believe that good men and women share eternity with God. I believe evil men and women do not. I hjave explained earlier in this thread that I belive that those who sincerely seek the Truth, seek the Good, and strive to live according to their understanding of this are judged as good by God.

I think, therefore, we Christians are called to support all in their struggle to live by their values, whatever they may be. I believe also that by our example we preach the Good News. To the extent that others come to our understanding based upon what they see us doing, this is good. To the extent they do not but continue to follow their own path to goodness, this is good as well.

In my mind, there is no distinction between good people and the right kind (Christian) of good people. I don't believe God sees a distinction and hence I do not believe we should try to interpret, much less enforce, a distinction on our own.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Rick Zimmer
Jul 19 2005, 05:39 AM
Dwain,

You being of a Calvinistic bent and I being of a Papist bent will, of course, differ on the faith alone/faith with works concept of salvation, but we both agree on the bottom line of much of what you have written.  So, let us put aside the fact you are wrong :D and move on from there. 

I do not disagree with the idea that we Christians have been called to preach the Good News of the Gospel.  I have said so in my comments to the Thumpster.

However, as I also said to the Thumpster, if God Himself is applying the redemptive grace of Christ's saving act to non-Christains, we must be very careful not to make our interpretation of the basis upon which he does this too narrow since we really have no means of knowing the ways of God in judging individual human beings. Indeed, I question whether we have any basis upon which to make it narrower at all than we make it for Christians.

It is one thing to say that someone has done something we perceive to be evil.  It is another to assume what God's judgement will be of that individual. It is another thing altogether to assume that God's judgement is altered because someone is a good person, just not the right kind of good person. 

Thus, I disagree with your final comment that "sharing that message with others will ultimately get more of us all out of the cave safely."  I believe this simply smacks of a Christian arrogance, implying a standard of judgement on non-Christians which we have no basis to apply.

I believe that good men and women share eternity with God.  I believe evil men and women do not. I hjave explained earlier in this thread that I belive that those who sincerely seek the Truth, seek the Good, and strive to live according to their understanding of this are judged as good by God. 

I think, therefore, we Christians are called to support all in their struggle to live by their values, whatever they may be.  I believe also that by our example we preach the Good News.  To the extent that others come to our understanding based upon what they see us doing, this is good.  To the extent they do not but continue to follow their own path to goodness, this is good as well.

In my mind, there is no distinction between good people and the right kind (Christian) of good people. I don't believe God sees a distinction and hence I do not believe we should try to interpret, much less enforce, a distinction on our own.

Rick, the biggest difference between people regarding the issue of how we are saved is in many cases semantic, and your choice of words "faith alone versus faith with works" points to this. No one who believes that we are saved by "faith alone" believes that we are saved "without" works - to the contrary, faith will be illustrated by an individual's performing good works; put another way, faith without works is not, and never was, actual faith. So no, Protestants who say we are "saved by faith" would never say that we are saved "without" works - only that we are not saved "by" works.

"...if God Himself is applying the redemptive grace of Christ's saving act to non-Christains, we must be very careful not to make our interpretation of the basis upon which he does this too narrow since if God Himself is applying the redemptive grace of Christ's saving act to non-Christains, we must be very careful not to make our interpretation of the basis upon which he does this too narrow since we really have no means of knowing the ways of God in judging individual human beings. "

I agree with you that only God knows fully how, and to whom, God will extend grace to. It is for this reason that I personally don't engage in parlor games of "who is good and saved, and who is bad and damned." As far as I'm concerned, that's for God to sort out. And yes, we must be careful in how we interpret God's actions and will for us. There is so much that we don't, and can't, fully understand.

However, if we believe that the scriptures are the inspired word of God and to be sufficiently comprehensive for us to understand salvation and how God would have us live, then I disagree with you when you suggest that "we really have no means of knowing the ways of God in judging individual human beings."

I believe quite firmly that we do, in fact, have a reliable authority that speaks to this question in the scriptures, and in Christ's own words. I believe that these scriptures give us a clear understanding that while there is a certain amount of God's truth to be gleaned in natural revelation and the ideal belief systems of virtually all cultures, that these truths are far less complete than the truths taught us by, and exemplified by, Christ.

"Thus, I disagree with your final comment that "sharing that message with others will ultimately get more of us all out of the cave safely." I believe this simply smacks of a Christian arrogance, implying a standard of judgement on non-Christians which we have no basis to apply."

It's certainly true that there have been, and continue to be, many examples of absolute arrogance, in the true definition of that word, perpetrated by people trying to share Christ's gospel in the world. But at its essence, to merely share the gospel with others is not arrogance at all - it is simply carrying out the "great commission" given to Christians by Christ. Living out one's faith in their actions is very important, but by itself it is not sufficient to carry out Christ's commission: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." While others may have uttered the quip to spread the gospel, using words if necessary, Christ did not make that distinction. Here, just as in salvation itself, words and deeds are inseparable halves of the whole.

To be honest, I see many instances of people off-handedly dismissing actual word-of-mouth evangelization as "arrogant" to merely be a manifestation of their own uncomfortableness in sharing their faith - which if they truly believe, would be something wonderful that they would naturally and un-self-consciously want to share in a spirit of love, to make sure that people witnessing their lives don't misinterpret the basis for the good works. Thinking of actually putting your faith into words, and on the line where they may be dismissed, politely or otherwise, is indeed a scary thought, and not for the squeamish. It also requires a person to be very well-grounded in his or her own faith and understanding - and sadly, far too many people who claim to be Christian have very little depth to their personal theology.

So no, I do not see it as arrogant to carry out Christ's commandment to do exactly that - I see it as being an obedient follower, whether doing so gives me the willies or not.

"I believe that good men and women share eternity with God. I believe evil men and women do not. "

We disagree here, too. I believe that while humans are capable of comprehending good, and even of striving for it, ultimately none of us is "good" as defined by God, and certainly none of us is so "good" as to be considered "holy," and worthy of being in the presence of God. We're all swimming around in the same cesspool. When people understand this, it goes a long way to preventing the aforementioned arrogance.

Christ's commandment to us in the Great Commission is one part of God's ultimate plan for creation that we've been tasked with. Ultimately, it isn't up to us to understand every aspect or reason for it. We're just told to do it. We're not told to browbeat or harass people with the gospel. We're not told to try to "coerce" a conversion - in fact, we're told such a thing is actually impossible. We're not told to concern ourselves with whether people ultimately accept, or reject, the message of the gospel. Our job description outlined in the great commission doesn't make us responsible for "closing the deal" - that's up to the Boss. All we have to do is live as Christ has instructed us, and that includes sharing what we believe, and why, in words as well as deeds. We're not called only to be different - we're equally called on to explain why we are.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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