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| America does not value educators; We pay them too little. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 25 2005, 03:39 PM (686 Views) | |
| dolmansaxlil | Jun 27 2005, 07:04 AM Post #26 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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The Catholic system is the same here as what Alberta Crude describes. The pay scale is very similar to our secular public board, though. I believe, AC, that we're the last two provinces to have a Catholic public system (don't get me started on that, though!) |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Jun 27 2005, 07:33 AM Post #27 |
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Bull-Carp
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Saskatchewan, BC and NFLD also have Catholic systems. In the case of Alberta and Saskatchewan it was a condition of us becoming a province in 1905. Ammendment would require an act of Parliament in Ottawa. |
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| Jolly | Jun 27 2005, 07:44 AM Post #28 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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One can read books on fine woodworking until one's eyeballs fall out. One can even take various courses under master furniture builders, and receive hands-on training out the wazzoo. But if you can't pick up a plane, and knock out a 4-square board, you ain't jack. I've seen kids with 3 days of shop class do it. I've seen other people who will never do it, no matter how hard they try. No amount of education can make anybody into something they are not. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Steve Miller | Jun 27 2005, 07:50 AM Post #29 |
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Bull-Carp
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Agreed, and no amount of salary will enable even the best teacher to educate a kid who doesn't want to be educated. |
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Wag more Bark less | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Jun 27 2005, 08:05 AM Post #30 |
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Bull-Carp
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No common sense person would dispute this. Some kids are better working with their hands than with their heads. Identifying and streaming kids in to academic, fine arts, technical and vocational paths works- granted its not PC or inclusive but it does work and the students finish school with skills to complement their talents. |
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| dolmansaxlil | Jun 27 2005, 08:43 AM Post #31 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Nope. That's a parent's responsibility. Kids are born curious, ready to learn, soaking up everything like a sponge. The value that a parent places on learning does a lot to shape how well a child will do in the classroom. No, it won't increase a child's IQ, but a kid who WANTS to learn and who has been taught to value education will fare better (in the school system, anyways) than someone who has a very high IQ but is taught that education is meaningless. The parents do a lot to set that up, and then a child's early teachers will complete the job. That's one of the main goals of primary education as I see it - helping all children to enjoy learning and see the value of it. Unfortunately, you can't change what's happening at home. And AlbertaCrude - you may not believe this, but I actually am very much for having streamed highschools. I don't think a child should be forced into a stream they don't enjoy (for example, I wanted to take both woodworking and a drafting course in Highschool (I needed special permission to take them because they were grade 9 and 10 courses and I was in my final year. I already had more credits than I needed to graduate but needed two more classes to round out my course load), and was refused admittance by my guidance counsellor because they were General level course and I "didn't want to be down there with those people" (his words). Turns out I went to university for theatre tech and took both carpentry and drafting in my first year. Anyways, back on topic... I think streaming is a brilliant idea. As much as I happen to love the socratic experience of learning, it isn't for everyone. Why not give kids with other talents a chance to succeed and feel that their skills are just as important, if in a different way? |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| Steve Miller | Jun 27 2005, 08:52 AM Post #32 |
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Bull-Carp
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That being the case, why are the solutions proposed to raise low test scores always based on higher salaries for teachers? I like teachers, I want to see them paid well but I suspect that test scores in most districts would stay roughly equal even if you doubled all of the teacher's salaries tomorrow. |
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Wag more Bark less | |
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| dolmansaxlil | Jun 27 2005, 08:59 AM Post #33 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Well, this isn't an argument I'm familiar with, since we don't have the same standardized testing system as you and because our school boards aren't funded in the same way. But here's my theory on that. If you live in a school district with low test scores, in many cases (not all), that district is also low income. Because of these factors, teachers don't want to teach in those areas - espcially if the pay doesn't make it worth it. So those areas may get teachers who are unable to find employment elsewhere, young teachers who don't stay at a school for more than a year or two, etc etc. If you increased teacher's salaries in those areas, they may attract better teachers to the low-scoring schools, increase their willingness to be involved with extra curricular activities for the kids - which also would help raise test scores. Now, I've made what i think is probably the argument - however I don't necessarily buy it. I think teachers should be well-compensated, because it's a tough job. But I don't think paying teachers more is necessarily going to raise test scores. Make sure the teachers are compensated well enough that they are willing to teach in "undesirable" areas, pour money into early intervention programs and before and after school programs, do more in the way of public education for new parents, get the school involved in the community and vice versa. Those are things that will increase test scores across the board in lower income areas. |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Jun 27 2005, 09:08 AM Post #34 |
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Bull-Carp
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Whoa, Steve. Don't assume that the issues facing education and the public system that Dol and I are familiar with are the same as what occurs in the US. The arguments teachers and school boards alike have with their respective provincial education departments is with adequate funding to school boards that would reduce classroom sizes and provide better learning facilities. I can't think of any time recently that teachers have come and said, "pay us more money and we'll produce better results". The latest disputes have always centred on classroom size, weekly teacher prep time and facilities. |
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| dolmansaxlil | Jun 27 2005, 09:13 AM Post #35 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Exactly. Our most recent contract negotiation had very little to do with money. We wanted more prep time and less supervision time. Class sizes are being dealt with on a provincial level, and our current government has promised a hard cap on primary classrooms of 20 per class. |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Jun 27 2005, 09:21 AM Post #36 |
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Bull-Carp
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One thing to bear in mind is that here the Federal Government provides no direct funding for K to 12 education outside of Aboriginal Reserves and the northern territories of Yukon, NWT and Nunavut. It has no jursidiction or constitutional authority whatsoever in provincial education or curriculum. Although we do not have SAT's the individual provincial departments of education work together with post secondary education institutions to design provincial curricula with similar grade level learning outcomes. |
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4:58 PM Jul 10