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| America does not value educators; We pay them too little. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 25 2005, 03:39 PM (687 Views) | |
| kenny | Jun 25 2005, 03:39 PM Post #1 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/06/24/te...s.ap/index.html |
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| dolmansaxlil | Jun 25 2005, 04:05 PM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Just for comparisons sake, I looked up the average public school teacher's salary in Ontario. The figures I found in a very quick search were from last year (we just succesfully negotiated a new contract with a pretty decent raise, so it's a bit higher now) and the average was $62,625. I'm perfectly happy with the top out I'll hit in 9 years (Right now, about $82,000.) For a first year teacher at the second highest salary level (where most teachers enter the grid) we make about $42,000 a year (which is not that far under the US average, apparently). It goes up about $3000 per year of experience til you hit the top out. I can't complain about salary here. Not even a little. (Our benefit plan is another story, but then again our board has the worst benefits in the province). I think if I lived in the US with those figures, I might not feel the same way. |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| KlavierBauer | Jun 25 2005, 04:32 PM Post #3 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Well in Colorado at least, State employees, including many public educators fall under the "para plan" which is extremely generous in terms of retirement. For the longest time I was the one shouting "teachers make too little". But then throw in summers, and a few weeks vacation during the school year, with this retirement plan available only to state employees, and I'd say they have it not so bad. [EDIT] in general though Kenny, I completely agree. educators should be valued as much as health givers in our society, and certainly more than computer programmers who are averaging 70-90k a year. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| The 89th Key | Jun 25 2005, 06:26 PM Post #4 |
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Yeah, with the summer and vacations off...it's not so bad, although I do think we should pay them more. I'm think 15% more. But at the same time, the positive thing about having a lower wage, is that it increases the quality. The higher the salary, the lower average quality teachers we would have. |
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| apple | Jun 25 2005, 07:14 PM Post #5 |
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one of the angels
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teaching seems to be a good return on the education investment... excellent peripheral benefits. |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| dolmansaxlil | Jun 25 2005, 08:22 PM Post #6 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I agree to a point. The problem is that is the salary is too low, you get really intelligent people who would make excellent teachers who just aren't willing/able to work for the low income when they have the education and brains to do something else. You also get less men in the job - which is a real issue in schools - kids need more positive male role models. |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| gryphon | Jun 25 2005, 08:25 PM Post #7 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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That's $34K USD. |
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| dolmansaxlil | Jun 25 2005, 08:29 PM Post #8 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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But gryphon, you have to remember that we're buying things in Canadian dollars as well. When you're getting paid/buying stuff in the same currency, it all works out in a wash. If you compare cost of living here to the US, the amounts work out very close to the same. Yes, some things are more expensive, but some things are cheaper. Salaries tend to be similar here to there dollar wise - so as long as you are spending your Canadian earnings in Canada it's a wash. |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| gryphon | Jun 25 2005, 09:30 PM Post #9 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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So do I understand you to agree with my post, that it is the same as making $34K and living in the US where things are cheaper in US dollars, and $42K in Canada where things are more expensive in CAD? If so then I fail to see the point of your post. If not, then I fail to see your argument. Being a university grad and making $34K in the US isn't doing too good. |
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| dolmansaxlil | Jun 25 2005, 09:42 PM Post #10 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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No, gryphon. I am saying that making $42K in Canada and spending it in Canada is pretty much the same as making $42 K in the US and spending it in the US. And as I said - SOME things are more expensive in Canada and SOME things are cheaper in Canada. It's really a wash. So what I'm saying is that the average teaching wage in Canada is quite a bit higher than in the US. Because when you're talking about Canadians making and spending American money, you can more or less compare it on par to Americans making American money. |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| gryphon | Jun 25 2005, 10:02 PM Post #11 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Hmm...ignoring taxation, I thought commodity prices were pretty much level: gasoline, fuel oil, milk, lumber, furniture. If what you say is true then companies sell their stuff 20% cheaper to you than us. |
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| dolmansaxlil | Jun 25 2005, 10:06 PM Post #12 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Well, just as an example - housing prices for similar areas seem to be about the same. Products vary. Clothing tends to be more expensive here, but other products seem to be cheaper or about the same cost (dollar for dollar, not factoring in an exchange rate at all). And yeah, our taxes are a bit higher (than some states - we're actually pretty close to a couple of your more highly taxed states), but you also have to remember that we don't have to pay for medical insurance. What it comes down to is this: If you make $60,000 in the US, then move to Canada in a similar type of area (from city to city or rural to rural), and are doing the same job, you could expect to make about the same amount here, and you could expect to live at about the same level of comfort. |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| gryphon | Jun 25 2005, 10:17 PM Post #13 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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You don't? Then some Canadians have lied to me when they've talked about paying for it. I distinctly remember them talking about writing the check for it back in the OCR days. Alberta Crude even showed me links to the formulas for figuring out how much to pay. |
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| dolmansaxlil | Jun 25 2005, 10:19 PM Post #14 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Well, in Ontario we don't. Many people have additional coverage through their jobs for dental and the eyedoctor - but basic medical is all covered. I go to the doctor, I don't pay a dime. I have surgery, it's free. No matter what your income. |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| Luke's Dad | Jun 26 2005, 07:36 AM Post #15 |
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Emperor Pengin
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There are areas in the US, that I could OK on 40k a year. There are other areas I couldn't survive on less than 70K. I do believe in paying teachers more. I also believe in more accountability. I believe in a pay structure based on merit, not how many years they've been in the system. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Jun 26 2005, 09:17 AM Post #16 |
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Bull-Carp
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So you have no monthly or quarterly premiums to pay to OHIP? If so, the clock's ticking and sooner rather than later you will be paying just like us rednecks have always willingly done in Alberta. The free ride's over- and that's a good thing. BTW what happened to this legislation? Ontario Health Premium Or did McGuinty flip flop? |
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| dolmansaxlil | Jun 26 2005, 11:16 AM Post #17 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Oops - I genuinely forgot about the premium. It was only introduced last year, and since it's deducted with my taxes and I never really see it, it had totally slipped my mind. But yes, that's the first we've had to pay. |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Jun 26 2005, 02:54 PM Post #18 |
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Bull-Carp
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What is really ticks me off here, is that the teachers unions' do not recognize previous professional experience unless it is for vocational skills teachers. While I can understand that it would difficult, if not near to impossible, to attract a licensed and experienced tradesman into vocational education at a paltry 44K, absolutely no recognition is given to individuals who possess professional skills and experience in others areas such as applied sceinces, law or business. The latter are forced start off a second career job in teaching as any first year teacher who went directly into a B.Ed programme following high school. |
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| Amanda | Jun 26 2005, 10:38 PM Post #19 |
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Senior Carp
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Do these salaries include the benefits paid on behalf of the teachers by tax-payers? Benefits add about 1/3 to what is the nominal base salary. Our local teachers have salaries among the highest in the nation, especially when you figure in the fringe benefits - medical care and state retirement, in particular. Furthermore, the C-O-L here is well below affluent urban areas like NYC or CA. Tax-payers were just informed that the school budget is going up again - hugely - this year. Almost 10 % (after a 4% increase the previous year). OF that, half is to pay the 30% increase in medical costs for the staff. Like me, they're covered by a PA Blue Cross plan. However, I just see my premiums rise - and worst of all, my benefits drop. The formulary which was just iinstated for medications won't cover the two brand name medications I take, which are widely recognized as behaving metabolically differently from the generic. That's going to really bite! As of next year, our students will have a per pupil average expenditure of $12,400 of which the greatest element are salaries. This figure includes, of course, ALL expenditures on behalf of an employee - all their medical and dental insurance costs, for instance. ! I guess it's safe to say that teachers are not undervalued in our community...I'll be glad when they institute a Homestead Exemption allowance, even though our real estate isn't actually in a growth bubble. The tax increases are far in excess of inflation and have been, since I moved here twenty years ago. Not so, for the professors working at the University which is the bedrock of the Community! |
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[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005 | |
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| Jolly | Jun 27 2005, 05:48 AM Post #20 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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While it's more fair to factor everything in, the most common method of comparison is salary. As LD said, that becomes relative to COL where you're at. A funny thing about teacher pay, and performance.....Catholic schools tend to pay a bit less than the public school, and tend to hire more non-certified teachers. Yet, they consistently outperform public schools. I think that says a lot about teachers, in general..... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| dolmansaxlil | Jun 27 2005, 05:52 AM Post #21 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Care to elaborate, Jolly? |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| Jolly | Jun 27 2005, 06:02 AM Post #22 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Be happy to.... An education degree does not a teacher make. Oh, I think it can take a person with a bit of talent, and transform a good teacher into a better teacher. I do not think an education degree can make a bad teacher into a mediocre one. I believe teachers are born, not made. I also believe the composition of the courses for current education majors is horse hockey. In the old days of the Normal School, we could train pretty durn good teachers for the elementary grades in about 24 months. I see no reason why that type of AD would not work today. Along those same lines, I would be much more comfortable with secondary ed majors having much more grounding in their subject matter, than in education courses. The gap between say...a physics major, and a secondary school science teacher with a concentration in physics is pretty wide. It has to be, because the teacher is too busy taking education courses. I have a few more ideas, but I have to run. Be back in a short short.... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jun 27 2005, 06:23 AM Post #23 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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And it's a good thing. The biggest impediment to teaching is classroom behavior. It's often by a small number of children, but a small number can distract the teacher from providing teaching services to the class as a whole. Education courses teach teachers how to deal with behavior problems, which make them more effective teachers. I'm not talking about troublemakers, by the way. I'm talking about ADHD. I'm talking about kids who are less adept at understanding social cues, or are unaware of their own behavior. These are kids who are very teachable, but you have to make adjustments for their individual characteristics, or else they become a disruption to the entire classroom. Education courses also teach teachers how different children learn. Some learn best visually, some learn best aurally, and some learn best by experimentation and thinking. Dealing with different learning styles is absolutely not an intuitive skill. Teachers who understand how different children learn, and how to teach different children differently, are more effective teachers. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| dolmansaxlil | Jun 27 2005, 06:27 AM Post #24 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I don't necessarily disagree with you, Jolly. I'll give you an idea of what the requirements are here for different levels of teaching. In order to enter teacher's college here, you have to have a Bachelor's degree in something first. I had a Bachelor's of Applied Arts. Then you take a one year course to get your Bachelor's of Education. If you want to teach at the Primary/Junior (Junior Kindergarten through Grade 6) you don't have to have any specific requirements - just the degree. For Intermediate (Grade 7-9) you need to have one teachable - a certain number of courses at the university level in a given subject area. Then you also take additional hours for your BEd in that subject. For Senior (Grades 10-12) you need two teachables - and the number of courses required for your main teachable pretty much means that you had to major in the subject in your under grad degree. Again, you take additional courses during your BEd in those teachables. For the Primary/Junior teachers, the time that is not taken up by learning more about your teachable subjects is taken up by more rigorous instruction on current research into literacy and math instruction, since that is such an important part of primary/junior education, and HOW you teach is a bit more important with younger kids. So basically, for the Senior teachers, you get people with majors in their teaching area then they get their Education degree on top of that. It's 5 years from start to finish to obtain both degrees. (There is a program for obtaining a concurrant Bachelors of Arts and Bachelors of Education, but it's primarily used by Primary/Junior teachers and the entrance requirements are much more rigorous.) I did learn some useful things in my one year BEd program. Research, curriculum directions, ideas of how to reach different types of learners, etc. I learned even more on my 4 placements where I taught in schools. But the only way to really learn how to teach is to do it. In my third week of supply teaching, I ended up in one grade 5/6 class for the whole week. I learned more in that week than my entire BEd year. There is talk of changing our education program to a two year program. I disagree. I just don't think it's going to turn out better teachers. In my opinion, they should put that energy into giving more support to first year teachers (who leave the profession in droves because there is such a learning curve once you get your own classroom). Put it into ongoing professional development so teachers who are already out there can figure out what areas they need more training in and then get that training. I guess what I'm saying is that, while the requirements for obtaining a teaching certificate here are not by any means perfect, I'm ok with them. But I do agree that teachers are born, not made. The training just hones those skills a bit and give you some additional tools to work with. A bad teacher isn't going to be greatly improved by training. A great teacher is going to be improved by the training simply because they are building on natural talents they already have. |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Jun 27 2005, 07:02 AM Post #25 |
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Bull-Carp
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I would concur with Dol here. I don't how a person qualifies to be a teacher in the US, but from what I can tell for a K to 12 teacher to be licensed anywhere in Canada they must a have the minimum of a 4 or 5 year B.Ed degree from a recognized university. In Alberta, transfer students already holding a B.A, B.Sc /M.A., M.Sc or even a Ph.D. are required to take at a 2 year After Degree B.Ed consisting of 60 addtional course credits and 13 weeks of student teaching. There are of course some education courses required- specifically in assessment, classroom management, law and ethics and working with children with disabilities, but the focus of the programme targets the core subject specialization areas. Another point is that Catholic schools in Western Canada are public Schools rather than private schools. Indeed we have two public systems- a general Public School system and a Catholic system, for students whose families direct their annual school taxes to the Catholic School Board in their area. Needless to say, there are also private and charter schools. In Alberta I would say that Catholic School Boards pay marginally better than the regular Public School Boards. As well they appear to be better at fiscal management and public accountability. From what I can tell from reading the education debates in the OCR and now here, the public systems in the US leave much be desired. K to 12 public education is one area where we in Canada deliver a consistent and qualitatively higher standard of product. |
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4:58 PM Jul 10