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More Oil Dumbosity
Topic Started: Jun 24 2005, 12:08 PM (499 Views)
kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/24/news/econo...on=money_latest

The Senate seems to think there is plenty of oil.

Don't need to make cars with better MPG.

I wonder if GM and the oil companies make campaign contributions. :yes:
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
good, use it all up!

I'd love to ride a horse to work
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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The 89th Key
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Random question: Wouldn't it be unconstitutional to pass the gas...law?

Sorry, couldn't help myself. :P

No seriously, I find it slightly invasive if the government wants to tell us what kind of cars to drive, even if it's indirectly through auto-makers. Not that I really care either way...
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markallen
Middle Aged Carp
personally, I'm just really impressed with the word "dumbosity" I'm going to begin using it on a regular basis!! :thumb:
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
The 89th Key
Jun 24 2005, 12:45 PM
Random question: Wouldn't it be unconstitutional to pass the gas...law?

Sorry, couldn't help myself. :P


:lol: Depends if the gas is lumpy.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Markallen said "personally, I'm just really impressed with the word "dumbosity" I'm going to begin using it on a regular basis!!"


What do you expect from a guy who repeatedly displays such a provocative propensity towards bimbosity?
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markallen
Middle Aged Carp
:sombrero: :sombrero: :sombrero:
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gryphon
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Middle Aged Carp
Kenny, I think there is a large misperception about some car companies.

Toyota Prius ads claim the cars get 60 mpg, but the reality is that many Prius owners get about half that mileage - about 36 mpg. GM has five models that get similar mileage to the Prius and carry no price premium like the Prius, but you never read about that. If GM had a vehicle that advertised 60 mpg but actually delivered 36 mpg, you can bet that it would be front page news, plus a nice segment on 60 Minutes.

In terms of quality, of Toyota's eight plants, their best quality ranking is 16th. Of the top 10 plants for quality, GM has eight of the top 10 and four of the top five.

Toyota workers work for less money and are five times more likely than a GM worker to sustain an on-the-job injury and 10 times more likely to be injured seriously enough to lose work days.

According to J.D. Power, GM was the number one multi-line manufacturer in Sales Satisfaction last year. Where was Toyota, including Lexus? Seventh place.

GM was ranked second in the critical Customer Service Satisfaction index in multi-line manufacturers last year. Toyota was ranked fifth.

GM's lowest quality-rated vehicle is the Pontiac Vibe, assembled in California by - you guessed it - Toyota.

GM, Ford, and Chrysler's average domestic content is 82%. Toyota's is 40%. Lexus is 3%.

Because of that every 100 GM, Ford, or Chrysler vehicles produced in the U.S. supports the livelihood of 23 full-time workers. Conversely, every point share gained by Toyota represents 18,000 lost American jobs and countless profit dollars that are shipped overseas to Japan.

GM isn't all Hummers, big Suburbans, and large dually pickup trucks with extended cabs, but those who want or need them appreciate them. If you want a car that'll deliver more than 30 mpg GM will sell them to you all day long. On the other hand, you can buy a Toyota (I got the following just now from the toyota.com website):

Toyota Land Cruiser: 17 mpg highway.
Toyota Tundra Double: 18 mpg highway.
Toyota Sequoia: 18 mpg highway
Toyota 4Runner: 21 mpg highway

GM SUVs and trucks get better gas mileage than Toyotas.

GMC Envoys get 21. A 400 HP Yukon that will hold 9 adults gets 20 mpg. Even a full-sized GMC Canyon or Chevy Colorado pickup truck gets 27 mpg.

Chevy Aveos get 35 mpg. Cobalts get 34. A full-sized Chevy Impala gets 30 mpg with a 3800 engine (and 32 mpg with a 3400 engine). That's better than a Toyota Camry XLE.

I haven't even mentioned some of the gas-sipping Saturns or Pontiacs or Buicks. Have you seen the new Lacrosse? Very nice, and it gets 29 mpg.

Have you seen Pontiac's new 28 mpg Solstice? $19K MSRP and that's before rebates and other customer incentives!

Posted Image
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Gryph, to be fair, most people don't get the advertised fuel ratings on ANY car, be it GM, or Toyota.

This is because not many people drive with gas mileage in mind. Kenny would get 30+ out of a GM, because of his driving habits, while the guy who can't get 60 out of a hybrid, wouldn't get 30 out of a GM either.


Otherwise, great post.

For me personally the issue has little to do with fuel savings or fuel prices. For me it is simply a desire to use less of it, and decrease our nation's dependency on it.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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markallen
Middle Aged Carp
KlavierBauer
Jun 24 2005, 05:14 PM

For me personally the issue has little to do with fuel savings or fuel prices. For me it is simply a desire to use less of it, and decrease our nation's dependency on it.

KB,

This is the reason wifey and I bought the TDI Golf.

Golf: 45mpg
F350: 14mpg
Boat: 11gph (yuk - gallons per hour)

All diesel though!!
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gryphon
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Middle Aged Carp
markallen
Jun 24 2005, 08:19 PM
This is the reason wifey and I bought the TDI Golf.

But who would want to have to drive a Golf?

And you're talking about a gas savings of $300 a year. $6 a week.
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yhabpo
Junior Carp
Quote:
 

but the reality is that many Prius owners get about half that mileage - about 36 mpg.

http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/
As always, you're quite wrong gryphon.

The quality of Japanese cars is unmatched by the rolling rubbish that American companies produce. What are your sources, by the way? Your American propaganda is amusing only because of its highly delusionary aspect.

American cars are an embarrassment and an insult to the intelligence of the human species. They are the industry leaders in poor engineering, cheap construction, and overall lack of elegance. Do you drive one, gryphon?
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gryphon
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Middle Aged Carp
yhabpo
Jun 24 2005, 09:15 PM
As always, you're quite wrong gryphon. The quality of Japanese cars is unmatched by the rolling rubbish that American companies produce.  American cars are...the industry leaders in poor engineering, cheap construction, and overall lack of elegance. Do you drive one, gryphon?

Posted Image No, actually I'm not. It all depends on your driving habits. If you drive short distances, even if they are highway, you will get poorer mileage. Like say, your everyday 10-15 mile commute. If you drive long distances, yes, you'll get better. (And if you drive like Kenny you'll probably get even better yet).

People who buy Priuses tend to drive those Priuses differently than they would a larger and more comfortable Chevy Impala (or Corvette). Even Prius owners acknowledge this. Speed, acceleration, warm-up, and distance all drastically influence hybrid mpg numbers.

You dispute the content of my post? You dispute the customer quality or satisfaction numbers? The domestic content part? The mpg numbers?

Tell us, what great cars does your country produce?

And yes, I drive one of our lousy domestic products.

Posted ImagePosted Image

What do you drive?
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Great post Gryphon. :thumb:
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
markallen
Jun 24 2005, 05:19 PM
KlavierBauer
Jun 24 2005, 05:14 PM

For me personally the issue has little to do with fuel savings or fuel prices.  For me it is simply a desire to use less of it, and decrease our nation's dependency on it.

KB,

This is the reason wifey and I bought the TDI Golf.


I view your position as admirable, and am glad to see you are not basing your Golf purchase on economics.

I like Golfs - they're nice to drive. Once you figure in what it's going to take to keep it running for 80-100K miles however, there will not be enough fuel savings to offset the cost of the repairs it is (statistically) certain to require.

In fact , I'd say that an American truck (unless it's a Dodge) will prove to be more economical on a cost per mile basis over a life cycle of 100K miles.
Wag more
Bark less
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Steve Miller
Jun 25 2005, 05:36 AM
In fact , I'd say that an American truck (unless it's a Dodge) will prove to be more economical on a cost per mile basis over a life cycle of 100K miles.

Yes, I drive a truck. A Chevy 2500 4X4 at that.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Jun 25 2005, 05:56 AM
Steve Miller
Jun 25 2005, 05:36 AM
In fact , I'd say that an American truck (unless it's a Dodge) will prove to be more economical on a cost per mile basis over a life cycle of  100K miles.

Yes, I drive a truck. A Chevy 2500 4X4 at that.

big trucks are also "asset protection" ;)
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
And you're talking about a gas savings of $300 a year. $6 a week.


Gryphon, how could you possibly presume to know my fuel savings without knowing how much I drive, or what I was driving before?

As I said, I purchased this car because I can run it without using foreign oil, not because of a few bucks saved in gas. I've never actually understood the fixation with gas prices. People get all worked up over a few cents a gallon. Big woop... you drove across town to save $.50?
The fact is, I was driving a Tacoma getting 16MPG, and now drive a vehicle that gets 45 MPG. I drive about 300 miles a week, or 1200-1500 a month. If your math shows that only as $6.00 a week saved, I'm fearful for the public education system.

For what it's worth, and to make the point that I don't drive the car for gas savings... I pay more at the pump than anyone in my area. I pay more for biodiesel, and am happy to do so.

Steve:
I'm sorry, which maintenance costs are these?
my routine matintenance is quite a bit lower than most actually. I use a synthetic oil and only have to change it every 10,000 miles, which I do myself. I don't have an ignition system as it is a diesel, so I have no need for changing spark plugs, distributor cap, wiring, or any other part of a gasser's "routine" maintenance. in 82000 miles, it's had 2 glow plugs changed.
Yes, statistically they may be high in maintenance costs, but because the service departments are expensive, and VW owners typically have their cars in religiously for scheduled maintenance. So I choose to do the work myself.
The biggest thing a TDI faces is the timing belt change which has to be done every ~80,000 miles.
I'm getting ready to throw on a new suspension... that'll be about $200.
I'm sorry, I spent about the same keeping my Japanese car on the road, and didn't have nearly the level of quality in engineering, design, or handling (which makes perfect sense given it was a truck).


IT:
If you mean they're good at saving your wife or loved one's "ass", this is not always true.
I can tell you that the accidents I've seen with SUV's have often been ugly.
SUV drivers tend to get into accidents because of their inability to control the vehicle evasively. They think they're invincible, and pay less attention because of it (I understand that's a BROAD generalization).
They don't always work out to be the armor they're hoped to be, and sometimes they are, at the expense of someone else's life. Why not train people to drive better, rather than put them in larger more protective vehicles?
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
KB I don't think that is what IT meant. All the same though I'd much rather be behind the wheel of in my 3/4 ton truck when the yo-yo in the SUV piles into my rear steel bumper than in my wife's Outback or some other family or very fashionable light duty vehicle.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
All the same though I'd much rather be behind the wheel of in my 3/4 ton truck when the yo-yo in the SUV piles into my rear steel bumper than in my wife's Outback or some other family or very fashionable light duty vehicle.


I'm sure we all would. Before I mandate that everyone drive a truck for safety though, I'd implement some sort of licensure much more intensive and educational than the current show-up-on-your-16th-birthday-and-collect-your-license modality.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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The 89th Key
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Gryph, that's a NICE car!!! :cool:

I'm thinking about getting a Pontiac Grand Am GT 2005 (I have the '95, haha), the Pontiac Solstice like you posted, or a Mazda RX-8.

Hey, AND I know what yahaboaboa drives....this is a picture I took in Rome:

Posted Image

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
How CUTE!
I want one.

:hearts:
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Cute indeed... they intorduced those cute things here a year or so ago...owners loved them until the streets got icy.... a bit like roller derby.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
When I lived in Germany the Mercedes A class had just come out, as well as the Smart car.

They were both really popular, and probably made sense for most of the city-dwellers.
We made fun of them, but never saw one driving around looking for a parking spot. Guess the joke was on me!
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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gryphon
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Middle Aged Carp
KlavierBauer
Jun 25 2005, 12:48 PM
Gryphon, how could you possibly presume to know my fuel savings without knowing how much I drive, or what I was driving before?
Get a grip, KB. Did I single out you? I was speaking generically to Kenny's original post as well as his "Toyota does it better" Posted Image

And now you are reinforcing my original point, that one cannot idiotically assume that Toyota and other Japanese manufacturers make a superior and gas-saving product. Or rather, that only an idiot can assume that. By your own admission your Toyota got 16 mpg. (Which is real interesting in itself because Kenny questions whether or not GM payed off the government because GM makes high consumption cars whereas the Japanese don't). I was using EPA average fuel economy numbers from all the manufacturers. As I wrote, a 400 HP Yukon that will hold 9 adults gets 20 mpg. And that can actually tow stuff. Show me Toyota's or Honda's or Mitsubishi's or Nissan's equivalent. Even a lousy company like GM can make an auto like that. Why can't Toyota?

Toyota brags that they manufacture 9 cars that get 30 mpg or better. How many cars does GM manufacture that get 30 mpg or better?

Back to your original complaint. For informational purposes, here's how I arrived at my numbers. Any drooling idiot can walk off the street and buy a large, full-sized family car that gets 30 mpg highway. I had already mentioned the Chevy Impala (30-32 mpg) as just one example, but I'm sure Ford has similar vehicles. So I compared 30 mpg v. 45 mpg listed in the previous post for the Golf TDI). 100 HP? Are you kidding me? My motorcycles had more power than these anemic vehicles. Using the average 12,000 miles per year used for warrantee, that equates to 400 gallons v. 266 gallons. At today's prices (I used $2.26/gal because it comes out even, although it's cheaper in most of the US) that's $300 a year difference. I also assumed we're paying the same price. If you're actually paying more for your TDI fuel then that gets subtracted from the savings, whatever that is.

As for consumers like you and Kenny that want to reduce the US consumption of foreign oil, I agree. We need more advocates of domestic drilling and nuclear power.

Finally, I wouldn't put my child in many (most?) of the foreign autos that get great gas mileage. Would you? Would you trust your kid's life to that car?

Here's what I bought for each of my three kids: a GMC pickup, a Buick LaSabre, and a large Pontiac (I actually forget the model now).

A few years back I was t-boned in the driver's door by van doing 60 mph (on a country road, just so you know the circumstances. It was 100% my fault, too. I pulled out in front of him without warning and he was going full speed). I wasn't hurt. I was driving a mid-sized Chevy. Would you trust your daughter in a Golf or Prius?

One of my kids will be a junior in college this fall and he just bought a brand new 2005 Subaru. The doors are paper-thin and remind me of a Yugo. I had no say in the matter since he is of age and it's all his money, but I wouldn't own one.
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