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Rove's comments; (wonkette's take)
Topic Started: Jun 24 2005, 06:40 AM (747 Views)
jon-nyc
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Cheers
By now, every Democrat with an Iowan in their address book has called for Karl Rove to apologize his remarks at a NY Conservative party event; there, he explained why God made Bush President. Because if the Democrats had been in power, they would have "wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers."

This seems unduly harsh; everyone knows that Democrats would have wanted to pull out the attackers' feeding tubes and cloned their babies.

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
The White House stands behind his comments.

Unlike Durbin's prattle, I don't think the Left will want to wade off too far in these waters...because there is a enough of a trail to argue the validity, whether you agree or not.

If that happens, you are playing on Rove's turf.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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jon-nyc
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My intent was less to start a discussion on Rove's comments (which, of course, were absurd) than to pass on Wonkette's funny.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Actually, Rove did not say Democrats. He said Liberals. It is amusing to watch people who scrupulously avoid being called Liberals rush to take offense by comments made about them.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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big al
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Bull-Carp
So I'm not the only one who takes a peak at Wonkette now and then (although less often than before the election). It's typical of Carl Rove's take-no-prisoners approach to politics, though.

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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Jeffrey
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jon - I am not a fan of Rove, who exploited hatred of homosexuals to get Bush into office, but why is his comment not accurate as regards a large strand of liberal thinking on terrorism? We saw a lot of that stuff on the OCR, or you can pick up a copy of The Nation. Dean *did* say he thought Bin Laden should get a jury trial. I knew then the Dems (including Kerry) were doomed. Rove's comment is, regrettably, on target.
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apple
one of the angels
Jeffrey
Jun 24 2005, 10:25 AM
jon - I am not a fan of Rove, who exploited hatred of homosexuals to get Bush into office,

well.. we certainly have a different take on that issue Jeffrey.. I see the drive for homosexual marriage as a primary empowering factor of the conservative religious movement.. least looks that way from the midwest.. Kind of the way the Catholics and other right to lifers empowered the pro-choicers with their vocality.

I knew when they started marrying that that right's stance would be appealing to every Tom Dick and Harry marriage.... (and I'm finding out the religious right (at least in my state) is absolutely inane) - the majority of sane, fiscal conservatives absolutely cringe to think that we share a party).

Just a bit of rambling on the too vocal 'gimme' voices of special interests.
it behooves me to behold
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jon-nyc
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Jeffrey
Jun 24 2005, 07:25 AM
jon - I am not a fan of Rove, who exploited hatred of homosexuals to get Bush into office, but why is his comment not accurate as regards a large strand of liberal thinking on terrorism? We saw a lot of that stuff on the OCR, or you can pick up a copy of The Nation. Dean *did* say he thought Bin Laden should get a jury trial. I knew then the Dems (including Kerry) were doomed. Rove's comment is, regrettably, on target.

Its hard to answer your question without sounding circular. His comment is not accurate because it's factually incorrect. Of course, i've not monitored all leftish publications since 2001, so it is entirely possible someone suggest we provide therapy to Al Qaeda and I just missed it.

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Jeffrey
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jon - Maybe Rove was stating things in a polemical or dramatic way, but it is a standard canard of liberal and European thinking that terrorism is caused by poverty, dispair, and poor childhood treatment. Many liberals think that we need to understand the "motives" and concerns of the Islamic terrorists in order to prevent terrorism. But we need to do this no more than we need to fully understand the motives of Ted Bundy or any other mass murderer. We just need to capture and kill them. Terrorism is not caused by poverty, or dispair, or poor childhoods, or any other liberal explanation. It is created by religious indoctrination. It is a product of hope and aggression, not dispair and poverty. It is stopped only by killing them, not by putting them on trial and trying to "understand" their alleged greivances. This was Rove's accurate point, and unless the Democrats start to get this, they will continue to lose elections. (Note: I foolishly voted for Kerry, since Bush's domestic agenda appalled me.)
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jon-nyc
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There was a fringe element against retaliating against Al Qaeda, but thats all it was. Certainly the vast majority of the Democratic party (and all its leaders) don't belong to this fringe.



In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
His comment is not accurate because it's factually incorrect.


No it isn't, it's dead on the money - and all you have to do to find proof of it is recall what many of the leftwingers on these forums have said for the last 2 years. Surely you remember the constant whining about how fighting the enemy wasn't the answer, that we should sit them down and find out why they are mad at us? That has been a mantra of the left for years. Rove is simply holding a mirror up to what they've whined for the last two years, and they don't like what they look like.

Our biggest enemy is not Al Qaeda - it's leftists.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
Tom Dick and Harry marriage....

Isn't that the whole issue? :D


Jeffrey:
I agreed with what you were saying, up until the point that you decided the only way to stop mass murder was with .... mass murder.

I guess I believe in the sanctity of life enough that I don't consider genocide an acceptable means to stopping someone I disagree with.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jeffrey
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KB - I am not sure why you think that killing Al Quaida members, or the political leaders of Hamas, to be genocide. I want to reply to your post, but I don't understand your comment. How is torturing Al Quaida members, or Gitmo, of Sharon's airstrikes against Yassin and Rantisi, the same as "genocide"??

jon - Here is the CNN discussion of Rove's comments. He was apparently referring to Moveon.org. I believe Rove has accurately described this organization: "Rove, the architect behind President Bush's election victories, on Wednesday night told a gathering of the New York Conservative Party that "Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers." Conservatives, he said, "saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war."

He added that groups linked to the Democratic Party made the mistake of calling for "moderation and restraint" after the terrorist attacks.

Bartlett, appearing on morning news shows Friday, said that Rove was referring in his talk to Moveon.org, a liberal group that has been identified with movie producer Michael Moore.

"It's somewhat puzzling why all these Democrats ... who responded forcefully after 9-11, who voted to support President Bush's pursuit of the war on terror, are now rallying to the defense of Moveon.org, this liberal organization who put out a petition in the days after 9/11 and said that we ought not use military force in responding to 9/11," Bartlett said on NBC's "Today" show. "That is who Karl Rove cited in that speech ... There is no need to apologize."

Appearing on CBS's "The Early Show," Bartlett said that Rove was "just pointing out that MoveOn.org is a liberal organization that didn't defend or accept the way that we prosecuted the war in the days after" the September 11, 2001 terror attacks on New York and Washington."

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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I honestly apologize if I was mistaken, your post seemed to sound like you were all for the systematic killing of these indoctrinated peoples.

Gen-o-cide
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jeffrey
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KB - I am aware of the definition of genocide. I just don't see how advocating killing and torturing terrorists (rather than putting them on trial and blaming ourselves for their actions), amounts to anything close to genocide. I don't care if people don't like the US or its values, only if they try to kill us. If they want to to that, we must take appropriate pre-emptive action. Sharon is a good model here.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Oh, I understand what you're saying.
So you're advocating the extermination of an indoctrinated people, and you don't see it as fitting the definition of genocide with which you are familiar (as posted above).... rather you see it as "pre-emptive action" ?

Why is this religious based militarism called "pre-emptive action" for one religion, and "terrorism" for another?

I hope you understand that I'm not trying to quibble with you about something. I'm just very surprised by your view on this, it seems to go against everything I've seen you say previously. I have genuine interest in your thought process here. Sorry for the probing questions, but enquiring minds want to know. :)
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I understood him to say we should kill terrorists not indoctrinated people. Am I misunderstanding something?
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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jon-nyc
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Jeffrey - i had seen the full quote before. Its still a ridiculous statement. It would be like saying "When liberals see an interracial couple they consider it social progress. Conservatives see an uppity n***** in need of a lynch."

Yes, there are fringe groups that would think that, and they are conservative, and some even have 'links' to the republican party, but it would be an absurd statement to make nevertheless.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
JB: I understood him to say the same thing, with a prior definition to "terrorist" being not someone who is simply religiously indoctrinated.

Perhaps I am mistaken here, if so I apologize.
It just seemed to be a very "loose" rationale for the killing of someone based on their supposed group, with no proof of affiliation needed.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jeffrey
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KB - I genuinely don't understand your post or why you are saying what you are. JB correctly summarized my view: we should kill and/or torture for information terrorists (for example, those in Al Quaida or Hamas) not "people" in general of any group. Similarly, we should capture and execute Ted Bundy, but not all young men in Florida (or wherever he was).

Since I never said anything even vaguely close to what you are suggesting, I feel rather odd to have to "clarify" that I don't support genocide. I am not sure what thought process or debating tactic you are using here. Are you trying to raise the philosophical question about the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter? Even then, you wouldn't get to a charge of genocide. You would just have to argue that Al Quaida is a genuine national liberation group using moral methods of war given the circumstances.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I'm not utilizing any specific debating tactic. I'm trying to understand your thought process here, that's all.

Now you're trying to make it sound like I'm crazy for calling the killing of combatants genocide. I'm not.

I have just asked for clarification, and I think I have it now. Thank you.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
KB: "I understood him to say the same thing, with a prior definition to "terrorist" being not someone who is simply religiously indoctrinated.

Perhaps I am mistaken here, if so I apologize.
It just seemed to be a very "loose" rationale for the killing of someone based on their supposed group, with no proof of affiliation needed."

It is a fact that the most virulent terrorists in the world today come from organizations motivated by fundamentalist Islam. There are some others - the Tamil Tigers, the IRA, perhaps the PLO (but even within the PLO almost all suicide bombers are Muslim, almost none are of Christian background). I believe the facts indicate while that many people suffer, or believe they suffer, under various injustices and problems, terrorism as a response to that belief frequently comes out of the specific ideology of fundamentalist Islam. None of this implies that Muslims should be killed, only that terrorist Muslims should be. I don't know how to be any clearer about this, and am somewhat regretting replying to such a silly charge at all.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
What charge have I made?
I've asked very clear questions the entire time, have said I'm sorry if I have misunderstood anything, and have thanked you for setting me straight....

kindly untwist your panties.

I have not charged you with anything. You are promoting the systematic destruction of a group of religious zealots who want to kill Americans. I understand that perfectly. I was simply defining them as a religious, and/or political group, and as such seeing if you agreed that this would fall under the definition of "genocide" which you are so familiar with.
You disagreed.... fine, point taken.

I still find it very intersting, but there's no need to freak out. you've explained yourself for everyone, and I thank you (again).
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
KlavierBauer
Jun 24 2005, 11:23 AM
Quote:
 
Tom Dick and Harry marriage....

Isn't that the whole issue? :D


Well no, so far the movement hasn't pushed for same-sex polygamy. But I've heard rumblings about a grassroots organization starting to talk about it in Utah...

"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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TomK
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jon-nyc
Jun 24 2005, 10:40 AM
Because if the Democrats had been in power, they would have "wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers."

Rove sounds just like me. :D


You can't help but love a guy like that. :thumb:
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