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Greatest American; ...who do you think?
Topic Started: Jun 23 2005, 08:08 AM (941 Views)
Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
I'm not so sure about Lincoln. He was pretty much forced into emancipation. As far as winning the war, most of the credit needs to go to the Generals, not Lincoln. The harder task was holding the country together after the war.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
dolmansaxlil
Jun 23 2005, 04:51 PM
Reagan?!? Reagan!??! Really?!?!

I mean, I know he "ended the cold war" blah blah blah. But greatest American?? Not buying it. Not even close.

I think I'd have to go with Lincoln as well.

The British list is interesting. I can't say I disagree with Churchill being at the top. I feel like a moron for saying this, but I have no idea who Brunel is :blush: Shakespeare and Queen E II are both also good choices. Oliver Cromwell is rather a surprise, though!

I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that Brunel built bridges.
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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big al
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Luke's Dad
Jun 23 2005, 12:58 PM
I'm not so sure about Lincoln. He was pretty much forced into emancipation. As far as winning the war, most of the credit needs to go to the Generals, not Lincoln. The harder task was holding the country together after the war.

Given the generals that he went through before finding ones that accomplished the mission, I can't agree. He did whatever had to be done to save the Union.

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
justme
Jun 23 2005, 01:00 PM
dolmansaxlil
Jun 23 2005, 04:51 PM
Reagan?!?  Reagan!??! Really?!?! 

I mean, I know he "ended the cold war" blah blah blah.  But greatest American??  Not buying it.  Not even close.

I think I'd have to go with Lincoln as well. 

The British list is interesting.  I can't say I disagree with Churchill being at the top.  I feel like a moron for saying this, but I have no idea who Brunel is :blush:  Shakespeare and Queen E II are both also good choices.  Oliver Cromwell is rather a surprise, though!

I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that Brunel built bridges.

Brunel was an engineer's engineer.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
justme
Jun 23 2005, 12:47 PM
Phlebas
Jun 23 2005, 04:45 PM
What about WT Sherman?

:)

You know, he came to my mind. He literally destroyed the South while saving the Union.

He was one nasty dude.

The First Chancellor of LSU?

Nah, he loved us..... :wink:
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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AlbertaCrude
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jazzyd
Jun 23 2005, 10:19 AM
We had a Greatest Briton poll over here a little while ago. The results:


Winston Churchill (28.1%)
Isambard Kingdom Brunel (24.6%)
Diana, Princess of Wales (13.9%)  :no:  :banghead:  :puke:
Charles Darwin (6.9%)
William Shakespeare (6.8%)
Isaac Newton (5.2%)
Queen Elizabeth I (4.4%)
John Lennon (4.2%) :shrug:
Horatio Nelson (3%)
Oliver Cromwell (2.8%)


Good luck with yours. :rolleyes:


David

Hmmm... I would have put Lord Nelson and Newton close to Churchill. Interesting that James Watt didn't make the cut- inventing the steam engine sort of set the tone for the industrial revolution did it not?


As an aside, the greatest Canadian was Tommy C. Douglas- founder of the CCF and leader of the NDP, the father of the Canadian health care system, Old Age security and Canadian Pension Plan. Grandftaher to teh actor Keifer Sutherland.

The rest as follows:

2 Terry Fox
3 Pierre Elliott Trudeau
4 Sir Frederick Banting
5 David Suzuki
6 Lester B. Pearson
7 Don Cherry
8 Sir John A. Macdonald
9 Alexander Graham Bell
10 Wayne Gretzky

source: http://www.cbc.ca/greatest/

I do not necessarily concur with the results, but I am not at all surprised. I recommend some of you take the time to browse the link and have a look at the biographies of the ten finalists if you don't already know who they are or for what they stood to make them held in such high regard.
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kentcouncil
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Luke's Dad
Jun 23 2005, 03:58 PM
I'm not so sure about Lincoln. He was pretty much forced into emancipation. As far as winning the war, most of the credit needs to go to the Generals, not Lincoln. The harder task was holding the country together after the war.

It has long been thought that the Emancipation Proclamation was an unenforceable declaration of military expediency, carefully planned to avoid alienating the border states still in the Union. In other words, a cynical political maneuver. However, I think the more recent and fascinating interpretation is that Lincoln was taking advantage of circumstances to do something he had secretly and passionately wanted to do for a very long time, after which he knew there would be no turning back.

Much has been made of Lincoln's supposedly ambiguous attitude towards slavery, including his public declaration that he would preserve slavery if it meant preserving the Union. Privately, though, we now know through a recently discovered personal letter that long before he became President, he harbored the goal of ending slavery.

We forget what a fringe movement abolition was at the time, even among Northerners. Lincoln's great achievement was turning a bloody and unpopular war into a moral crusade for freedom and equality (something Bush is trying to do with rather less success), single-handedly correctly the mistakes of the Founding Fathers; we don't live in their America. We live in Lincoln's America.

It is one of the most unfortunate events in American history that Lincoln and his wisdom and sensitivity was lost before Reconstruction, and the country was saddled with a true incompetent in Andrew Johnson. If the U.S. was blessed by Divine Providence in her greatest moment of need with Lincoln (as Frederick Douglass stated), she was cursed with Johnson in her second greatest moment of need.

Anyway, I find Lincoln and Washington endlessly fascinating. Usually, the more you know a historical figure, the less you admire him or her (Jefferson and Elizabeth I certainly comes to mind). However, with Lincoln and Washington (and to some extent Robert E. Lee), the more I study them, the more I stand in awe.

It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't.

- P.G. Wodehouse
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kentcouncil
Fulla-Carp
Jolly
Jun 23 2005, 04:07 PM
Brunel was an engineer's engineer.

I have loved the story of the "Great Eastern" ever since I was a boy.
It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't.

- P.G. Wodehouse
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kentcouncil
Fulla-Carp
AlbertaCrude
Jun 23 2005, 04:27 PM
As an aside, the greatest Canadian was Tommy C. Douglas- founder of the CCF and leader of the NDP, the father of the Canadian health care system, Old Age security and Canadian Pension Plan. Grandftaher to teh actor Keifer Sutherland.

The rest as follows:

2 Terry Fox
3 Pierre Elliott Trudeau
4 Sir Frederick Banting
5 David Suzuki
6 Lester B. Pearson
7 Don Cherry
8 Sir John A. Macdonald
9 Alexander Graham Bell
10 Wayne Gretzky

I would agree with Douglas, Banting, and Pearson. Sanford Fleming (he changed time!) and Sir William Osler (he brought medicine out of the dark ages) need to be on the list.

Don Cherry? :puke:
It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't.

- P.G. Wodehouse
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
kentcouncil
Jun 23 2005, 01:40 PM
Don Cherry?  :puke:

Hey, every country needs a popular blowhard. Worst coach in NHL history but make s for colourful Hockey Night in Canada TV. Actually I don't think O'Reilly or Ann Coulter would last a minute with Big Don. I was kind of hoping Martin would select him to be the next Canadian Ambassador to the US in retaliation for us having listen to Paul Celucci- hopefully though Don will replace Queen Adrienne. ;)
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FrankM
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Senior Carp
Jolly wrote:

Quote:
 
Hands down:  Washington


I resoundingly agree with that!! Being the icon he is, some people might have the impression he's been overrated. If anything, he's been underrated


Don Cherry? My Mom will likely be thrilled to hear that. I think she still has some of his records from the fifties. But I think I she would have selected Frank Sinatra instead.

Winston Churchill??! The man was an unrepetant imperialist to the end. Fortunately, Roosevelt straightened him out about that in '41.
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
THERE YOU ARE!!! Check out the Where's FrankM thread!!!


Missed you!
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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FrankM
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We were away on vacation. When I got back my workload was overwhelming!! But it's starting to whittle down.

Thanks for thinking about me, Peg! How's your real estate business going?
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
89th:
Bill Gates did NOT I repeat... did NOT invent the modern computer as we know it.
He DID make possible, and popular, the idea of home-computing. He also made this a proprietary nightmare when it didn't have to be.

He had little to do though, with the design, or idea of the modern computer. Most of this thinking went on well before his time.
He is certainly one of the most influencial Americans in terms of capitalism, and a shining example of how cheaters often DO prosper.

Now, as fore the "Best" all around American, I would have to agree with Jolly.
George Washington is the only person I can think of to be labeled the "greatest" American, with all that being an American entails.
Not only did he fight side by side with his troops to establish this great nation, he limited his own rule to set an example for future generations. He knew that any one person with too much power was a bad thing. The people wanted to make him King, and he declined, realizing that there was no place for "one ruler" in Freedom.
He had the entire nation in his hands, and instead handed it back to the people.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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gryphon
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Mark
Jun 23 2005, 02:25 PM
Sorry 89th but Bill Gates did not come up from nothing. His family was very well off.

He is a thief of ideas.

89th is terribly uninformed on some subjects.
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
FrankM
Jun 23 2005, 06:54 PM

Thanks for thinking about me, Peg! How's your real estate business going?

Very well, thank you. And, your vacation??????? Pics, please!!! In another thread, of course!

BTW we were worrying about you!!!!!
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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Bernard
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"but anyway, who do you think is a good nominee?"

The average voter.

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Fizzygirl
Fulla-Carp
Lincoln!

Brits? Not on the list, but I always admired Margaret Thatcher.
Cats are intended to teach us that not everything in nature has a purpose. ~ Garrison Keillor


My latest videos.

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The 89th Key
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First off, I'm well aware that Bill Gates did not invent the modern computer. I said he basically did...referring to Windows and the operating system that like 90% of the USA uses.

I said I knew he stole the idea, rather the inspiration for the modern Windows OS.

I didn't know that he came from a well-off family though. I was just trying to think of non-political names. Thomas Edison was also a thief of ideas but could be considered one of the greatest Americans.

Gryph, I find "89th is terribly uninformed on some subjects." very, very insulting. Examples might alleviate my mix of confusion and dismay.

Finally, my first thought for Greatest American was Washington. He was one of our best generals, and set many precedents...even calling it "President" instead of "King", etc... Lincoln is also right up there, helping to settle the worst time we've had, inter-state and intra-nation speaking. FDR was also quite good, as was MLK because of the epitome of what a non-violent protest can do...one of the main attractions of our "free" society.

I'd also say Washington since none of the other nominees would probably not be here had it not been for ole George. But that's a bad line of logic, I know.
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Steve Miller
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Thomas Jefferson , or perhaps Washington.

Reagan doesn't even belong in the same thread.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Steve Miller
Jun 23 2005, 10:15 PM


Reagan doesn't even belong in the same thread.

I know several men who worked directly for RR (men who I hold in high esteem), who believe him to have been a great man and a great president. Flawed, perhaps. Maligned, greatly. But he worked and succeeded at freeing millions from oppressive slavery. He has earned his kudos. What have you done?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Steve Miller
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ivorythumper
Jun 23 2005, 11:25 PM




Quote:
 
But he worked and succeeded at freeing millions from oppressive slavery. 


Hate to be the one to break this to you Thumper, but he was mostly just there when it happened.

Quote:
 
What have you done?


I have pointed this out to YOU.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Steve Miller
Jun 23 2005, 10:31 PM
ivorythumper
Jun 23 2005, 11:25 PM




Quote:
 
But he worked and succeeded at freeing millions from oppressive slavery. 


Hate to be the one to break this to you Thumper, but he was mostly just there when it happened.

Quote:
 
What have you done?


I have pointed this out to YOU.



I don't agree with you about Reagan's (non) role. It was on his agenda early on -- the libs attacked his "Star Wars" plan and mocked his "Evil Empire" rhetoric. He traded arms reductions for human rights conscensions -- very savvy. He was obviously more than "just there".

The libs have had it out for RR ever since he called out the troops in Berkeley. It probably still pisses them off that their socialist worker's paradise has collapsed due to Reagan's instrumentation. Now the only place commies can call home are college campuses and nunneries.

But if that's the best you can do, I'll throw a vote your way. :)
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kentcouncil
Fulla-Carp
Steve Miller
Jun 24 2005, 01:31 AM
Hate to be the one to break this to you Thumper, but he was mostly just there when it happened.

Absolutely wrong. The brinksmanship between the US and the USSR during the final decade of the Cold War is fascinating, and Reagan was an active, not passive, participant. This was a crucial time in American history and deserves further study (it is a misconception that to have lived through something is to understand it). To reduce Reagan to spectator status is to confuse him with Bush I and Clinton.
It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't.

- P.G. Wodehouse
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