| Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Deadly driveway; What would you do? | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 21 2005, 08:05 PM (300 Views) | |
| dolmansaxlil | Jun 21 2005, 08:05 PM Post #1 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Last weekend, there was a single vehicle accident on a back road where a girl in her early 20s lost her life. She fell asleep while driving home in the wee hours, went off the road, flew into a ditch, hit a culvert at the end of someone's driveway, and ended up with the car in the ditch. It's a deep ditch, and though they determined that the accident happened at around 1:30am, she wasn't found until after 5am. 15 or so years ago, my great uncle died in a single vehicle accident. He was driving a commuter van on a back road in the wee hours. He fell asleep (the other 3 men in the van were also asleep). He went off the road, flew into a ditch, hit a culvert at the end of someone's driveway, and ended up with the van in the ditch. It was a deep ditch, and though they determined the accident happened at around 1am, they weren't found until 5am (all dead). See any similarities? Yep. Same ditch. Same culvert. Same scenario. Now, the people who own the house have NOTHING to do with it. It's not like they erected some deadly structure or anything. The ditch just happens to be very deep, it's a dark back road, there's a cement culvert there, and it's a coincidence that these two accidents happened in exactly the same way. But if you were the owners of that house - knowing 5 people had died at the end of your driveway, would you be looking into a way to make the culvert less dangerous should someone end up in the ditch? Would you be trying to find out if there was anything to do to make a car that could end up there more visible? Would it bother you to know? I don't really have any kind of opinion on this one. I just know that if I lived there, I couldn't help but feel sad that it had happened (twice!) and would feel somewhat responsible (even though they clearly aren't) How about you? |
|
"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
![]() |
|
| KlavierBauer | Jun 21 2005, 08:12 PM Post #2 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
I'd be looking for a new place to live! Seriously though, it seems as though they might want to look into something. Even though it is clearly not their responsibility to do so, it would certainly be a sensitive act to show that they don't want to see this happen again. |
|
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
![]() |
|
| The 89th Key | Jun 21 2005, 08:14 PM Post #3 |
|
I see how you feel, and if I owned the house/driveway...I would put up some reflector sticks, and maybe even a guardrail if the ditch is big enough for one. Basically, yes I would do something if I owned that house. |
![]() |
|
| NAK-1.0 | Jun 21 2005, 08:22 PM Post #4 |
|
Senior Carp
|
I wouldn't feel at all responsible. Why should I? But I would do something about it, if it happened twice. |
![]() |
|
| dolmansaxlil | Jun 21 2005, 08:39 PM Post #5 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Nak - I think it's just one of those reactions that though it makes NO sense, some people can't help feeling it. The people had NOTHING to do with putting up the culvert. It's not dangerous in itself. It's all coincidence. But i think I'd feel like I was somehow responsible too, as irrational as it is. |
|
"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
![]() |
|
| NAK-1.0 | Jun 21 2005, 08:39 PM Post #6 |
|
Senior Carp
|
You know me better than that. But yes, I understand what you're saying.
|
![]() |
|
| big al | Jun 22 2005, 04:54 AM Post #7 |
|
Bull-Carp
|
Most of the things that would be effective would probably not be done by the adjacent property owners but rather by the agency (province, township, ? - I don't know much about road administration in Canada). The edge annunciators (grooves on a paved shoulder) are pretty effective in alerting drowsy drivers that they are drifting off the road. A guide/guard rail to prevent vehicles entering this very deep ditch might be justified. A different drainage structure might also be in order. I have seen a few instances where property owners who had problems with vehicles frequently leaving the road on a sharp curve and entering their property have made raised earth berms or planted dense hedges, usually in cooperation with the road agency placing additional warning signs/devices. At least here in the US, such work entails some liability risk if the property owner places rocks, posts or other obstructions to stop vehicles that increase the risk to accident victims. One problem is that there are many such hazards on low volume rural roads and limited funds to deal with them. However, an elevated accident rate, particularly fatal accident rate, should move a safety improvement well up on the list of priority sites. Big Al |
|
Location: Western PA "jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen." -bachophile | |
![]() |
|
| Dewey | Jun 22 2005, 05:06 AM Post #8 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Yes, the problem is in how the roadway is designed and maintained. The ditch appears to be within the public right-of-way along the road's edge, which, even though it may (or may not) be part of the homeowner's property, is the responsibility of the local government to take care of, not the property owner. If it were me, I'd be raising hell with the local council/trustees/whatever, and the local public works board, to either install storm sewer and fill in the open drainage ditch, or to install guardrails to prevent accidents like these. If I were the property owner, I'd be right there with you demanding a fix to this dangerous situation, but it isn't really their thing to fix. |
|
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
![]() |
|
| Amanda | Jun 22 2005, 11:04 AM Post #9 |
![]()
Senior Carp
|
I'm having a little trouble picturing the accident scene (had ot look up "culvert"). It sure does sound like the municipality's fault. And I'm wondering about your saying both drivers fell asleep at the wheel. I don't see any reason at all to assume that. It's very easy on a dark road (how dark was it? Any illumination at all?) to accidentally drive off the edge of the road paving. It's dangerous enough if there's merely gravel there - if there's a turn too, it practically ensures the car would skid. This by way of an example of a different kind of road hazard. But to have a huge ditch with some kind of solid structure in or adjacent to it (meaning of culvert??) is pretty much a booby trap. You wouldn't expect to see a mountain road with no protection at the berm, against someone flying off into a real chasm. And yet it sounds like this was virtually the same thing - only the "chasm" was very short. What's more, there's absolutely no way for a motorist to know to take special precautions. What if a schoolbus taking a detour, came upon that situation on a dark night - say returning kids from a special event? Around here a roadway like that - akin to a bordering a sinkhole (especially an unmarked one) would cause immediate action. That would not only be for care of motorists, but for fear of being sued. I'll bet a highway engineer would testify that the township was grievously at fault in both accidents. Probably the only reason there haven't been more, is that the location is rather remote. |
|
[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005 | |
![]() |
|
| AlbertaCrude | Jun 22 2005, 11:12 AM Post #10 |
|
Bull-Carp
|
![]() That corrugated steel thingy the water runs through and the road covers is a culvert. And unless it is a private road on private land maintenance is the responsibility of either the muncipality or provincial government. |
![]() |
|
| Phlebas | Jun 22 2005, 11:55 AM Post #11 |
|
Bull-Carp
|
I imagined the ditch being parallel to the road, and the culvert going under the driveway. I could be wrong though. Wouldn't be the first time. |
|
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
![]() |
|
| AlbertaCrude | Jun 22 2005, 12:10 PM Post #12 |
|
Bull-Carp
|
I reread Dol's post and see what you mean. There is an area of 25 - 30 feet -between a muncipal roadway and private property that is considered part of the road allowance and although the driveway and culvert may have been installed by the adjacent property owner, that portion is considered as an easement crossing public land. It's a hard call especially if the local authorities do regular inspections. I am sure there will be statements of claim naming the property owner, municipality along with the latter's road and right of way maintenance contractor. Whatever sticks to the wall. |
![]() |
|
| dolmansaxlil | Jun 22 2005, 04:15 PM Post #13 |
![]()
HOLY CARP!!!
|
Yep - the ditch is parallel to the road, and the culvert passes under the driveway. It's a farming area, and they have the huge ditches for runoff. Interesting thought about either driver not falling asleep. Possible. I know that in both cases they investigated the accident scene and concluded that they had fallen asleep because there weren't any indications that the brakes were used - either on the road or the shoulder. |
|
"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
![]() |
|
| The 89th Key | Jun 22 2005, 06:26 PM Post #14 |
|
Or maybe just drowsy...sometimes that's just as bad as falling asleep. |
![]() |
|
| Lisa | Jun 23 2005, 08:19 AM Post #15 |
|
Junior Carp
|
This is interesting to me because my house has a similar scenario - it's a very rural road with a steep decline, our driveway has a culvert under it, and while on the "uphill" side of the driveway, the ditch is only 1-2 ft deep, immediately on the other side of the driveway, it drops off to about a 40 ft ditch. There is a guardrail preventing cars from skidding off the road into the deep ditch, but it starts right at the corner of our driveway. That means that if someone started skidding uphill of the driveway, they could easily skid across the driveway and straight into the ditch. I've often worried myself that I'll be trying to turn into the driveway on an icy road, skid, and end up in the ditch. No one has been hurt yet, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Unfortunately, the township and the state (I've called them both) say that it is not their responsibility - it is a state road, so the township will do nothing. And the state says they are only responsible for 15ft out from the center of the road - about where the guardrail stops. If I want a guardrail along my driveway, I have to do it myself, at a significant cost (You would not BELIEVE how much a 20ft length of guardrail costs!). As I have a number of more pressing home improvement projects, this one sort of falls to the very bottom of the list, and I know I will never get to it. So if someone should happen to get hurt or, god forbid, killed, I will feel guilty that I didn't do it, but on the other hand, there are so many "what-ifs" that fixing them all would be impossible (what if someone walking through the woods falls into the creek and drowns - should I fence the whole creek?, etc.). I do think the state should take some responsibility - it would not have cost them that much to start the guardrail 20 feet earlier and wrap it around the corner along the edge of the driveway. But anyhow, I am sorry to hear of these two tragedies and for now, I can only cross my fingers and hope to avoid a similar situation. |
![]() |
|
| « Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic » |








But yes, I understand what you're saying.




5:00 PM Jul 10