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Terry Shiavo's grave
Topic Started: Jun 21 2005, 08:29 AM (1,324 Views)
Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
In reply to invorythumper and 89th,

If it were my daughter, I would have prefered to give her lethal injection and get it over with 15 years ago. I have stated that position with regards to the T. Schiavo case in the old CR. The son in-law will be building a new, happy family, I would be enjoying the company of my other surviving children, and the ex-son-in-law and my family would be on good terms.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
Jun 21 2005, 03:23 PM
ivorythumper
Jun 21 2005, 06:35 PM
It's not my concern about what Jolly said or thinks, or how you interpret his remarks. You are evading the obvious...
Not if you want to be consistent.

ivorythumper
Jun 21 2005, 06:35 PM
BTW:  Why do you think it is stupid as it pertains to Jeb, but not to your lionizing Schiavo?

Or are you trying to make an obscure point?
I think it is stupid to respect some one if the SOLE REASON is that person's persistence. Applies to M. Schiavo, Jeb, Hitler, Stalin, and every one else.

I respect M. Schiavo for not only standing firm, but for having stood firm for the right thing.

But it is clear that he changed his mind after some time. It seems that after the money and his new honey were in place, he is suddenly advocating pulling the plug. That is "firmness of conviction"?

As for the lethal injection, I appreciate your candor and remind me to not make you my executioner -- err, I mean executor.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
Kenny - Thanks for posting. It was a beautiful and moving tombstone.

I respect Mr. Schiavo for standing up for moral principle more than ever, despite the powerful forces organized against him and Terri. He certainly didn't ask to have these moral responsibilities forced on him, and few of us will ever have to sacrifice what he has out of love for their spouses and moral principles. The sick and delusional venom on this thread by Jolly and IT and the other anti-Terri types says more about them, than about anything or anybody else. I agree with everything Ax has said.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Well then, he must be right...
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jeffrey
Jun 21 2005, 03:33 PM
The sick and delusional venom on this thread by Jolly and IT and the other anti-Terri types says more about them, than about anything or anybody else.

You have to personalize the attacks, don't you Jeff?

Can't stand it that others don't see the world as you do?

Very sad. If that's what your secular materialism leads you to, you can keep it.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
IT - So why do you have to personalize the attacks on Michael? What's with the Hitler and Pol Pot stuff anyway? If anyone was like Hitler and Pol Pot it was the religious right types who tried to impose their view of morality by force on Terri and her loving husband because of their totalitarian mindset.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jeffrey
Jun 21 2005, 03:46 PM
IT - So why do you have to personalize the attacks on Michael?  What's with the Hitler and Pol Pot stuff anyway?  If anyone was like Hitler and Pol Pot it was the religious right types who tried to impose their view of morality by force on Terri and her loving husband because of their totalitarian mindset.

Please show me where I personalized the attack on Michael.

I did not intend to do so, but if I did I will apologize.

Edit: if this is what you are referring to
Quote:
 
If all it takes for you to respect a man is that he has "principles" or "firmness of conviction" you are certainly a sheep to be lead anywhere a stronger man wants to take you.

Please note the use of the subjunctive (or is it a conditional?).
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Hitler and Pol Pot didn't exactly go around trying to keep people from being killed, did they? Bad analogy, Jeff.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
Steve: "Please show me where I personalized the attack on Michael."

Uh, basically every single post you made in this very thread, for starters. Give me a second to re-post them.


(1) " It seems that after the money and his new honey were in place, he is suddenly advocating pulling the plug"

(2) " still think he is, if not a monster, incredibly misguided and brutally insensitive to the parents"

(3) "So did Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Saddam...

Go and lionize these bastards while you're at it."

(4) "Schiavo fought for her death -- and both profited and no doubt found it very convenient given that he already had abandoned the marriage"

I think we get the point, I could pull up even worse crap from the OCR. Truely revolting. I respect Mr. Schiavo for having to deal with such unreasoning hatred to carry out his promise to his wife.

BTW, initially the Schindler's encouraged Mr. Schiavo to see other women (which makes sense, since humans have the capacity through love to overcome almost any adversity), they only changed their mind after they decided, literally, to make a federal case out of it.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jeffrey
Jun 21 2005, 03:55 PM
Steve: "Please show me where I personalized the attack on Michael."

    Uh, basically every single post you made in this very thread, for starters.    Give me a second to re-post them. 


(1)  " It seems that after the money and his new honey were in place, he is suddenly advocating pulling the plug"

(more coming)

Sorry, Jeff. I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about personalizing attacks on a member of this group, as you did.

So is that how you shut up opposition, by insisting that we cannot express our opinions about public figures after weighing the evidence?

I don't buy it. And it won't work.

You should learn the difference between attacking a person with whom you are in discussion, and discussing another person who is only the topic of the discussion. Big difference.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jeffrey
Jun 21 2005, 03:55 PM

BTW, initially the Schindler's encouraged Mr. Schiavo to see other women (which makes sense, since humans have the capacity through love to overcome almost any adversity), they only changed their mind after they decided, literally, to make a federal case out of it.

I'd be interested to see evidence of this -- especially acknowledgment from the Schindlers themselves. Not that I doubt you (though it does seem somewhat improbable), but I had not heard of this...

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
The Schindler's are incapable of grasping reality (witness their response to the autopsy) and clearly will either lie and/or delude themselves into anything. The information is from the Economist of around the time of the fiasco.
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The 89th Key
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ivorythumper
Jun 21 2005, 07:44 PM
Jeffrey
Jun 21 2005, 03:33 PM
The sick and delusional venom on this thread by Jolly and IT and the other anti-Terri types says more about them, than about anything or anybody else.

You have to personalize the attacks, don't you Jeff?

Yeah, and why didn't you include me?! :P
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jeffrey
Jun 21 2005, 04:10 PM
The Schindler's are incapable of grasping reality (witness their response to the autopsy) and clearly will either lie and/or delude themselves into anything.   The information is from the Economist of around the time of the fiasco.

So then, I take it that your statement is based on hearsay?

EDIT: Is it possible that they said to him something like: "Go ahead, Michael, date other woman if you wish. Just divorce Terri and we'll take care of her. Get on with your life, and leave her alone."?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Jun 21 2005, 07:31 PM
But it is clear that he changed his mind after some time. It seems that after the money and his new honey were in place, he is suddenly advocating pulling the plug. That is "firmness of conviction"?

Ah... yes, money, yes, enough of it to make a man fight a Governor, the Congress, and the President of the United States.
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The 89th Key
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Axtremus
Jun 21 2005, 09:07 PM
ivorythumper
Jun 21 2005, 07:31 PM
But it is clear that he changed his mind after some time.  It seems that after the money and his new honey were in place, he is suddenly advocating pulling the plug.  That is "firmness of conviction"?

Ah... yes, money, yes, enough of it to make a man fight a Governor, the Congress, and the President of the United States.

...as long as he has the liberal courts on his side! :thumb:
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
Jun 21 2005, 05:07 PM
ivorythumper
Jun 21 2005, 07:31 PM
But it is clear that he changed his mind after some time.  It seems that after the money and his new honey were in place, he is suddenly advocating pulling the plug.  That is "firmness of conviction"?

Ah... yes, money, yes, enough of it to make a man fight a Governor, the Congress, and the President of the United States.

People often get entrenched in their positions -- even if it is not in their own self interest. Happens all the time.

Who knows, maybe he has movie rights.[size=14][/size] $$$
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
Jeffrey
Jun 21 2005, 04:33 PM
Kenny - Thanks for posting. It was a beautiful and moving tombstone.

I respect Mr. Schiavo for standing up for moral principle more than ever, despite the powerful forces organized against him and Terri. He certainly didn't ask to have these moral responsibilities forced on him, and few of us will ever have to sacrifice what he has out of love for their spouses and moral principles. The sick and delusional venom on this thread by Jolly and IT and the other anti-Terri types says more about them, than about anything or anybody else. I agree with everything Ax has said.

Ditto

[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Rick Zimmer
Jun 21 2005, 05:27 PM
Jeffrey
Jun 21 2005, 04:33 PM
Kenny - Thanks for posting.  It was a beautiful and moving tombstone. 

    I respect Mr. Schiavo for standing up for moral principle more than ever, despite the powerful forces organized against him and Terri.  He certainly didn't ask to have these moral responsibilities forced on him, and few of us will ever have to sacrifice what he has out of love for their spouses and moral principles.  The sick and delusional venom on this thread by Jolly and IT and the other anti-Terri types says more about them, than about anything or anybody else.  I agree with everything Ax has said.

Ditto

Really, Rick? You think I've been spewing sick and delusional venom?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
I'm somewhere in the middle, near Peggy, I have a feeling.

I don't mind the sentiments expressed on the tombstone. I think, to Michael, this became a point of honor. I think he felt that he made a promise to Terri, and he was bound and determined to keep it. That's why he wouldn't let her parents take over. I think he truly believed that wasn't what she wanted.

So I don't have a problem with what is said on the tombstone, because it's his final way of saying to Terri, I did what you wanted.

I have more of a problem with what isn't said. Not saying "loving daughter", or some such thing, was decidedly ungenerous.

I recognize he's bitter. The Schindlers made his life a living hell for many years, not just for him, but for his family too. The Schindlers and their supporters made up, and are still making up, all sorts of baseless attacks on his character. But it's over. He should let it go. And acknowledging her parentage on the tombstone would have been an act of kindness.

I can understand that he's still angry, but I would have had more respect for him if he could have gotten past that.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
QuirtEvans
Jun 21 2005, 06:34 PM
I think, to Michael, this became a point of honor.

I don't think Michael Schiavo would recognize honor if it smacked him in the face. I think you're almost right, though; I think to him it's a point of ego, which is often mistaken for a point of honor.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
I don't think Michael Schiavo would recognize honor if it smacked him in the face. I think you're almost right, though; I think to him it's a point of ego, which is often mistaken for a point of honor.


No, I meant honor, not ego. Ego doesn't make sense to me. If you'd said stubbornness, I could understand that, even though I wouldn't agree. But ego ... that doesn't make sense to me.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Rick Zimmer
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Fulla-Carp
ivorythumper
Jun 21 2005, 06:40 PM
Rick Zimmer
Jun 21 2005, 05:27 PM
Jeffrey
Jun 21 2005, 04:33 PM
Kenny - Thanks for posting.  It was a beautiful and moving tombstone. 

     I respect Mr. Schiavo for standing up for moral principle more than ever, despite the powerful forces organized against him and Terri.  He certainly didn't ask to have these moral responsibilities forced on him, and few of us will ever have to sacrifice what he has out of love for their spouses and moral principles.  The sick and delusional venom on this thread by Jolly and IT and the other anti-Terri types says more about them, than about anything or anybody else.   I agree with everything Ax has said.

Ditto

Really, Rick? You think I've been spewing sick and delusional venom?

Naw, probably not.

But I do think you and many others have used an awful lot of speculation and an awful lot of "well, it COULD have happened" to judge and condemn a man who none of you know except through some of the most exploitative news stories and propoganda we have seen in years.

Might I suggest, Thumps, that those of us for whom our Christianity actually means something should maybe focus on Christian charity when considering judging any of the principals in this immense and complicated tragedy and try not to judge -- leaving that to God, who will be all just and all merciful.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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The 89th Key
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Rick Zimmer
Jun 22 2005, 12:05 AM
Might I suggest, Thumps, is that those of us for whom our religion actually means something should maybe focus on Christian charity when considering judging any of the principals in this immense and complicated tragedy and try not to judge -- leaving that to God, who will be all just and all merciful.

Wise words Rick. I'm guilty of that a lot and I know it, which is the worst part.

The problem is, and maybe you can help me here, when does one challenge the principles of another man?

Should it never be done? For example, if your neighbor was stealing from another neighbor, should you not do something about it?

I'm so freaking bad at metaphors or examples. :veryangry:
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yhabpo
Junior Carp
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/...mm/11018183.htm
The Miami Herald
Posted on Tue, Mar. 01, 2005



Political war kills all hope of dignified death


In a southwest Missouri cemetery, the tombstone over Nancy Cruzan's grave invokes a dilemma of our times. ``Born: July 10, 1957; Departed: January 11, 1983; At Peace: December 26, 1990.''

Her grave marker, with an etching of an EKG graph forming the words ''thank you'' before descending into a flatline, has become a local landmark. Tour buses stop on the way to Branson.

For nearly seven years, after a devastating brain injury, Nancy Beth Cruzan lingered in a netherworld while the courts struggled to find the legal demarcation between a horribly diminished life and death. As the case worked its way up to the U.S. Supreme Court and back, it ignited irreconcilable political and religious and philosophical clashes that seared the nation.

The case finally returned to a Jasper County, Mo., courtroom in December of 1990. Judge Charles Teel ruled that the family could have their daughter's feeding tubes disconnected. ``I suspect hundreds of thousands of people can rest free, knowing that when death beckons they can meet it face to face with dignity, free from the fear of unwanted and useless medical treatment.''

It didn't quite work out that way.

Right-to-life radicals tried to storm Cruzan's hospital a few days later. Finally, 12 days after Judge Teel's order, on Dec. 26, 1990, Nancy Cruzan's body ceased functioning. But her death hardly brought finality to the issue.

FLORIDA REPRISE

Earlier that same year, a young Florida woman collapsed from a potassium imbalance, leading to a heart attack. An interruption in the supply of oxygen to Terri Schiavo's brain caused a permanent loss of cognitive function. And the Florida case reprised the same brutal, divisive, emotional struggles that had erupted in Missouri.

Like Nancy Cruzan six years earlier, Terri Schiavo had lapsed into a perpetual, mindless repose. Her state-appointed guardian, in 2003, reiterated earlier findings: ``Highly competent, scientifically based physicians using recognized measures and standards have deduced, within a high degree of medical certainty, that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state.''

Doctors noted another condition in Schiavo that recalled the hopelessness attached to Cruzan's case. Neurological tests and brain scans indicated that her cerebral cortex, the center of human awareness, had essentially liquefied. Both women's bodies could register certain disarming physical reactions, but there was no hope for recognition, communication, thinking, knowing.

Neither the diagnosis nor the Cruzan precedent has been enough to staunch an endless struggle to keep Terri Schiavo breathing. Her husband and legal guardian has fought since 1998 for the right to remove the tubes that keep her alive. He's up against Terri's parents, right-to-life advocates, disability activists, the conservative media, a reactionary Legislature and a governor who courts the Christian right.

DASHED HOPES

Her feeding tube has been removed and reattached twice amid this long political and legal firestorm. The Legislature has passed a blatantly unconstitutional law aimed at circumventing court decisions. And with another couple weeks before Schiavo's feeding tube can be legally removed once again, Florida lawmakers seem intent on yet another intervention.

The Schiavo case has disproved the hopeful assumption of Judge Charles Teel who decided the Cruzan case in 1990.

Fears of a spent, undignified life sustained by ''unwanted and useless medical treatment'' have only heightened. None of us can quite ''rest free'' of the notion that religious fundamentalists, backed by an ambitious governor, will force us all to live with their particular definition of death.

As of now, Terri Schiavo's tombstone might read:

Born Dec. 3, 1963.

Departed, Feb. 25, 1990.

At Peace: still beyond knowing.

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