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Those Wacky Christians; killed one of their own
Topic Started: Jun 21 2005, 02:03 AM (1,028 Views)
KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jon, I think your example of communism is great, and really makes Ivory's point.
Look at communism in the Soviet Union... much of its mission was to stamp out the Church. This has been the case in China as well, and there are still many persecuted there.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Stamping out religion would not a good thing IMO.

Stamping out radical religious wackos hell bent on destroying those who do not believe as they do or who attempt to convert the masses by coercion would be acceptable IMO.
___.___
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o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
The question of persecuting people for their beliefs is one of control. Under a Marxist-Leninist regime the total control of the population is guided by the atheist ideology of the Party. Religious belief and affiliation undermine the ability of the Party to exercise control. Unless the Party can control the clerics, religion is viewed as counterevolutionary. While the Party may not be able to stamp out religious belief entirely- indeed, the USSR was a prime example; religion is used in the service of the state as a useful propaganda tool when convenient and when necessary to stimulate patriotism among the masses.

Religious intolerance and persecutions by other religions is again a control issue and you probably find that it is usually secular in origin. The Thirty Years War- for all intents and purposes arguably the real WWI- grew out of Europe's secular powers using religion as a pretext to lay claim to populations and territory while hiding behind the guise of religion- be it Catholic or Protestant. Protestant Kings intensely distrusted Catholic subjects and Catholic kings intensely distrusted Protestant subjects. In either case, the prevailing secular powers would use, in addition to their horses and men, their allied church and clergy to exercise spiritual control of whole poplulations. Machiavelli's the end justifies the Prince's means was consider a given. Hence today in many Islamic countries we find religious persecution and intolerance in which the secular powers wrap themselves in the flag of religious orthodoxy in order to rationalize and justify their power hold over their respective citizens or subjects.
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
Actually, most monotheistic religions (Islam, Catholicism, Baptists, etc.) are similar to Communism in this respect. Both manage to murder millions of other humans, because the leaders of these movements believe they have the "truth" that they are entitled to impose by force on others. People can say, "Well, the centuries of religiously-motivated wars and terrorism and torture and murder are not true religion as I personally understand it." But then a Communist can say, "Well, Communism as it was actually practiced wasn't real Communism."

Actually, I think the Communist's argument would be stronger than the religious person's. One can quickly read Marx and show that actual Communism in practice was nothing like the society he described as his ideal. Or one could read Trotsky's The Revolution Betrayed or The Third International After Lenin. Doesn't matter: communism in practice works a certain way, because people when they believe they posess the right way for others to behave, and feel morally superior forcing these views on others (see the abortion and Schiavo and gay rights threads), act in predictable patterns, that frequenlty lead to the murder of those who don't behave in the right way (from Islamic fanatics, to Pol Pot to anti-abortion terrorists like Randall Terry). Catholicism (Inquisition, Crusades), Communism (gulags, killing fields), Nazism (world war and death camps), and other all-encompasing totalitarian viewpoints that claim absolute truth and the desire to impose it on others all wind up in the same place.
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AlbertaCrude
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Thanks for sharing that with us Jeffery. Who'd have known that? Is there anything out there you don't know?
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
AC - Gee, I didn't know you disagreed with me. Would you like to actually give an argument?? Or just keep your naive faith in the wonders of religion? Your choice.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
AlbertaCrude
Jun 22 2005, 02:24 PM
Is there anything out there you don't know?

I'm pretty sure he doesn't know the difference between a roustabout, a roughneck, a mudman, and a toolpusher.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
He will after he googles it...
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
I always love learning new things. I just wish AC would actually come up with arguments for his views. It would be nice for a change.

jon - Are any of those people found in Brooklyn? I think it is my sheltered Manhattan lifestyle that insulates me from such types. I did go to Park Slope last weekend (does that still count as Brooklyn??) The brownstones there seem to be coming down in price. I think all threads here in the NCR should wind up with references to Brooklyn, just like the WTF. :)
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Naaaah, there aren't nearly enough pictures of CJQ here.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Jeffery, my argument is contained in my post. What is so difficult for you to understand that when people get killed or murdered for the sake of religion or ideology there is almost always a secular political power involved?

As to religious faith, I neither accept it or reject it- I guess I don't reckon myself to be so enlightened about life's mysteries that I pretend to have all the answers. But I sure as hell know you don't either, in fact your favourite sawhorse has become something of cliched cariacature round these parts. [smiley]Yawn[/smiley].
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
Counter-examples: Inquisition, Al-Qaida, murder of doctors at abortion clinics.

Of course, religion and politcal power mix, but religion adds its own dimension. Someone who imagines they have a pipeline to god can justify anything.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
I suspect that you take the time to read about the Spanish Inqusition you will find its excesses to be primarily inspired by the Ferdinand and Isabella- secular monarchs.

As for Al-Qaida, its goal is to rid the Arab world of infidel foreigners and set up Islamic states. Secular power wrapped in religious belief. Bin Laden is no Caliph or even an Imam. He's a power hungry fanatic.

Individuals bombing abortion clinics and shooting doctors? Religiously inspired individual crimes perhaps but surely not a political movement.

Keep trying Jeffery, but I do agree that the tyrant or tyrants who wrap themselves in the cloak of religious or ideological orthodoxy are by far the most ruthless.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
You fascinate me, Jeffrey. Never in my life have I met anyone so absolutely full of hate toward religion. Emotions are a funny thing - they say it is a thin line between love and hate.... I believe it is also a thing line between hate and fear. I'm sure you consciously see your animosity toward religion as being rooted in your "superior intellect" and "education", where you have convinced yourself that you are "above" those who to you believe in fairy tales, legends, and fantasies. But I see something entirely different. I see it as a defense mechanism against your fears that you have allowed to become an obsession - you aren't satisfied to simply live and let live, you can't accept that anyone who believes in God can be as or more intelligent and learned than you - you are obsessively compelled to ridicule both them and their belief system.

There are several others here who do not believe in God, but not a one of them seems to feel a compulsion to ridicule those who do. Some even admit that God might be real, they just don't care to find out. And that's ok. But you and you alone here have made ridiculing God and those who accept the concept of God a pathological obsession.

The hate you feel toward God and those who believe in him is built on fear, Jeffrey. If it wasn't, you'd do like the others do who don't believe in the concept of God - you'd simply leave it alone. But you can't, because you are far beyond mere rejection of a belief. The other side of hate is love Jeffrey, and the other side of fear is joy. I hope that someday you get to experience the other side of those things, Jeffrey, because that's where you will find God.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
DBL POST
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
KlavierBauer
Jun 22 2005, 02:50 PM
Naaaah, there aren't nearly enough pictures of CJQ here.

LOL!
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Jeffrey
Jun 22 2005, 02:44 PM
jon - Are any of those people found in Brooklyn?  I think it is my sheltered Manhattan lifestyle that insulates me from such types.  I did go to Park Slope last weekend (does that still count as Brooklyn??)  The brownstones there seem to be coming down in price.    I think all threads here in the NCR should wind up with references to Brooklyn, just like the WTF.  :)


oil industry jargon. just having some fun, and i assume given his tag that AC is/was an oil guy.


i was right though! you didn't know! :D


re bkln, Park Slope is great - its very UWS-esque, except the people are cooler :D . Seriously though, its right next to the park, has lots of brownstones the same age as those in the 70s and 80s.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
jon - Yes, we saw 4 of the PS brownstones last weekend. Asking prices were lowered about 10% from a month ago. 5th ave was really gentrified from even 5 years ago: more good restaurants on 5th than on the whole UWS. :) If the prices softened a bit more, we might very seriously consider it. The walk to the subway is the big issue, since we both work in midtown. Just gathering information. A whole brownstone there was only a bit more than a 2-bed on the UWS. The architecture is gorgeous.

Brooklyn is the new Manhattan

Queens is the new Brooklyn

Manhattan is the new Queens.

Or something like that. :)

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jon-nyc
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Cheers
dude - check out 7th ave. even better. also, you could find a brownstone on one of the streets between 7th and 8th and be minutes from an express subway that would get you downtown just as fast as you could get there from where you live.


the decent brownstones are priced in around 2. (some cheaper that need mega-work, some gorgeous ones much more expensive) some have basement apartments that you can rent out which will pay 1/2 the mortgage.

HEY! We successfully morphed a thread from 'those wacky christians' to brooklyn real estate!

(explanation of inside joke - on WTF i posted that the difference between the OCR and WTF is that in OCR any thread had the potential to become a gay-marriage thread, whereas in WTF every thread has the potential to become a thread about brooklyn :))
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
jon-nyc
Jun 22 2005, 06:23 PM
the decent brownstones are priced in around 2.

$2?

Like in $2 mil?
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
Steve - He was thinking of places like this:

http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.a...istingID=767507

or this: http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.a...istingID=779759

I saw both of these.

Sure it's crazy, until you realize that a 1250 sq. ft. 2-bed co-op on the UWS is 1.4.

jon - We timed Bergen street to Grand Central at 22 minutes, a few minutes less than from the UWS.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
and I thought it was pricey here...

Still though, I'd take whatever that would get me here, over whatever it would get me there.

i guess it's a lifestyle subscription either way. But one sure is more appealing to me.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
Jeffrey
Jun 22 2005, 07:45 PM

Oh.

That is not what I thought brownstones looked like. They're much larger. $2 mil seems about right.

I have them confused with something else - row houses maybe?

UWS = Upper West Side?

My uncle lives on the 300 block of 11 th St. Would that be a brownstone? What do you call the neighborhood?
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jon-nyc
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Jeffrey
Jun 22 2005, 06:45 PM
jon - We timed Bergen street to Grand Central at 22 minutes, a few minutes less than from the UWS.

Jeffs gettin serious!

Gonna make a Brooklyn boy out of you yet!
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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jon-nyc
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Steve Miller
Jun 22 2005, 07:57 PM
UWS = Upper West Side?

My uncle lives on the 300 block of 11 th St. Would that be a brownstone? What do you call the neighborhood?

Yes UWS=Upper West Side. (thats the scarsdale-like section of Manhattan :D )


Re your uncle, is it 300W or 300E? 300E would be East Village and it would likely be a tenement-style building (realators might use the phrase 'townhouse'). 300W is probably considered West Village, altough its pretty close to the meat-packing district, so some may call it that.

Theres more variation there architecturally. Could be a midrise, loft, or tenement-style building, or something else I can't think of.

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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