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Those Wacky Christians; killed one of their own
Topic Started: Jun 21 2005, 02:03 AM (1,030 Views)
Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Jun 21 2005, 01:46 PM
I would venture a large wager that more murder, rape, torture, enslavement and human misery has been the result of the rejection of those values that traditional religion has sought to maintain in society. From the Terror of 1789, to the Armenian Genocide to the despotic regimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, etc. your "secular humanism" has a much worse historical track record than all the wars fought in the name of religion, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, etc.

You beat me to it, Steve, good post. But it isn't even a suitable wager, it's indisputable historical fact.

As to the "idiot question," I'm a committed believer. I am of above-average intelligence. Since:

a.) I know believers, both personally and by reputation, who are far less, and far more, intelligent than I am; and

b.) I know non-believers, both personally and by reputation, who are far less, and far more, intelligent than I am;

belief or nonbelief is an absolute non-indicator of intelligence or lack thereof. Religious faith is something that, at its best, is related to, but supercedes, the question of intelligence.

It seems to me that the most harm has been done to humankind by those who deny religious faith and try to eliminate its existence. The next dangerous group are those who have no clue about the true teachings of the faith that they think they are part of. No, the problems in the world have not been caused by too much religion, but rather by too little.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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The 89th Key
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ivorythumper
Jun 21 2005, 05:49 PM
The 89th Key
Jun 21 2005, 01:48 PM
Also true IT...how is it possible for there to be so many true, yet contradictly posts in one thread? It boggles the mind!

Because you were too quick to agree with Jon.

Well I still do. Religion has been the rationale for many if not the majority of "murders" that have occured in the last 2000 years.

Perhaps it's the "indirect" quality of religion that makes both sides correct, touching on what Jolly just said. Almost everything can be traced back to religion.

Some kill in the name of religion...and some kill to try and eradicate it. Both deaths are the result OF religion.

Just playing devil's advocate...
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
The 89th Key
Jun 21 2005, 01:57 PM
Religion has been the rationale for many if not the majority of "murders" that have occured in the last 2000 years.

On this point you are so very, very wrong that I urge you to hit the books, 89th - unless you count the genocidal killings perpetrated by atheists to eliminate certain religions from existence as "killing in the name of religion."

EDIT: I see that I didn't read your complete post... apparently you do lump them into the same category, to which I guess I just say, hmmm... :eek:
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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The 89th Key
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Well don't get me wrong Dwain...my point is that it's either from the love of religion or the hate of it...that many killings have been done. The revolutionary war, for example was indirectly because of religion. Crusades. 6 Million jews. So on and so forth...

Trust me, if you say something there's a 99.9% chance I agree with you...only that you say it with far more tact than I could. :P
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Mark
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so KB, have you actually witnessed the physical manifestation of satan?

Have you seen firsthand a person who was supposedly "possessed by demons"?

Or do you only take the word of people who lived millennia past?

Is satan nothing more than humankind's made-up anti-god? A symbolic representation of evil? Something to blame when bad things happen?
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
:veryangry:

Look, Dwain and everyone else who think I called people of faith idiots.

I DID NOT!

The people who murdered someone because they thought they were possessed by demons are idiots.

Have you murdered anyone lately? Yes? Then your an idiot. I do not care why you murdered them. You are an idiot. Self defense and miltary action do not count here.

Clear enough?
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
No I have not seen the physical manifestation of Satan on earth, nor is that what a demon, or demonic posession is.


Quote:
 
Is satan nothing more than humankind's made-up anti-god? A symbolic representation of evil? Something to blame when bad things happen?


Of course I don't believe this to be the case.


I have obviously alluded to having experience with this sort of thing, but have tried to avoid answering the "have you seen one?" sort of question.
Knowing you and I see this differently, I was more looking for recognition that it's at least possible for there to be more to the Universe than meets the eye, and with that being true, then it's possible for all sorts of things to be true, even if we don't personally believe them.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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The 89th Key
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Mark
Jun 21 2005, 06:18 PM
so KB, have you actually witnessed the physical manifestation of satan?

Have you seen firsthand a person who was supposedly "possessed by demons"?

Or do you only take the word of people who lived millennia past?

Be careful mark, using that line of logic, you can't believe that the Civil War happened, or that Alexander the Great existed, etc.

KB's right...there's much more than what we can physically see or touch.
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
IT: "Btw, I have met exorcists (bona fide Catholic priests working under the authority of the bishop) and trust their judgment. They are very savvy at figuring out what is psychological or chemical, and what cannot be explained through physical means. Real evil out there, just as there is real goodness. And what they do WORKS to heal people from "possession". Go figure."

Your thought process has simply lost contact with reality. There is medication that can help. As your friend, I implore you to seek help now.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jeffrey
Jun 21 2005, 03:37 PM
IT: "Btw, I have met exorcists (bona fide Catholic priests working under the authority of the bishop) and trust their judgment. They are very savvy at figuring out what is psychological or chemical, and what cannot be explained through physical means. Real evil out there, just as there is real goodness. And what they do WORKS to heal people from "possession". Go figure."

Your thought process has simply lost contact with reality. There is medication that can help. As your friend, I implore you to seek help now.

Thanks for the solicitude, Jeffrey. But I'll stick to prayer. :)
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jeffrey
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Steve: "But I'll stick to prayer"

The first step to healing is admitting you have a problem. You don't have to live like this, talking to an Imaginary Friend for help. Please see someone soon. Best - Jeffrey
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
Jun 21 2005, 02:24 PM
:veryangry:

Look, Dwain and everyone else who think I called people of faith idiots.

I DID NOT!

The people who murdered someone because they thought they were possessed by demons are idiots.

Have you murdered anyone lately? Yes? Then your an idiot. I do not care why you murdered them. You are an idiot. Self defense and miltary action do not count here.

Clear enough?

Mark, no need to yell... I read your post right after you posted it. I wasn't offended, and I didn't think you called anyone here an idiot. My comments were far more generic, and if anything, directed equally at people who call others idiots for religion and at people who think they've been called idiots over religion. Sorry if you took my comments as being directed at you. They honestly weren't.

You idiot.

:D
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jeffrey
Jun 21 2005, 03:43 PM
Steve: "But I'll stick to prayer"

The first step to healing is admitting you have a problem. You don't have to live like this, talking to an Imaginary Friend for help. Please see someone soon. Best - Jeffrey

Jeff:

I have been healed by Christ in ways that you could not fathom.

Thanks again for the solicitude.

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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The 89th Key
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The power of prayer is by far the most powerful thing a human can do.
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AlbertaCrude
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Heck I've had demons, nothing that two aspirins, glass of water and a sweat lodge couldn't fix.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Jun 21 2005, 04:16 PM
Heck I've had demons, nothing that two aspirins, glass of water and a sweat lodge couldn't fix.

You should try the Saint Benedict cross for those really stubborn ones.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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AlbertaCrude
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B & B or just straight Benedictine?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Jun 21 2005, 04:22 PM
B & B or just straight Benedictine?

:D

B&B!
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Dwain Lee
Jun 21 2005, 03:43 PM
Mark, no need to yell... I read your post right after you posted it. I wasn't offended, and I didn't think you called anyone here an idiot. My comments were far more generic, and if anything, directed equally at people who call others idiots for religion and at people who think they've been called idiots over religion. Sorry if you took my comments as being directed at you. They honestly weren't.

You idiot.

:D

:D
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Steve Miller
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Fizzygirl
Jun 21 2005, 12:08 PM
Finally someone else who has a mother-in-law like mine! I thought I was alone in the world. She once said to me, "I always thought I knew what was best for everyone.

Start a mother-in-law thread, and I'll take on all comers.

NOBODY has a mother in law like mine...
Wag more
Bark less
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
ivorythumper
Jun 21 2005, 01:46 PM

I would venture a large wager that more murder, rape, torture, enslavement and human misery has been the result of the rejection of those values that traditional religion has sought to maintain in society, than by those who uphold these values.  From the Terror of 1789, to the Armenian Genocide to the despotic regimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, etc. your "secular humanism" has a much worse historical track record than all the wars fought in the name of religion, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, etc.

Take heed of my sig line.



Certainly communism has been a bigger killer, but i'm not sure i'd pin that on secular humanism. I've read some pretty cogent arguments that communism's success in the west is due to its striking parallels to Christianity. (success in gathering adherents, that is)

We also have to take technology into account - what might have happened if the clerics of the Age of Faith had the tools and methods of the Stasi? What if Mohammad had had 15 carrier groups and an air force?

The real problem with religion is not so much what is believed but how. When men believe they are acting on behalf of god, they can easily slip into extremism, believing that the ends justify the means.

Religion has also been a force for moral and intellectual obscurantism without equal. Declaring holy the texts written by ancient tribes, we lock in their worldview and moral outlook. Of course, that has good aspects, when we lock in such dicta as 'thou shalt not kill'. But the worldview codified by many of those texts also viewed slavery as ok, women as property, infidels as fair game, etc. Thus religion often became a barrier for progress. In the west, virtually every major social and scientific advance in the last 500 years has had to battle against religious obscurantism. (At least in Europe and the US, though, the battle has been largely won, notwithstanding some rear-guard actions in the American heartland. I can't say the same about the islamic world)
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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The 89th Key
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Well written post jon, and I agree with most of it...however when Ivory says "I would venture a large wager that more murder, rape, torture, enslavement and human misery has been the result of the rejection of those values that traditional religion has sought to maintain in society, than by those who uphold these values.", I think he's dead right.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
The 89th Key
Jun 22 2005, 04:13 AM
Well written post jon, and I agree with most of it...however when Ivory says "I would venture a large wager that more murder, rape, torture, enslavement and human misery has been the result of the rejection of those values that traditional religion has sought to maintain in society, than by those who uphold these values.", I think he's dead right.

Its hard to disagree with Ivory's post, but it runs the risk of defining away the problem. Since each act of violence is (preumably) contrary to religious values, then by definition theres no such thing as violence in the name of religion. Of course we know thats not how history has unfolded. It goes back to your (and mine, i guess) distinction between the ideal of religion and religion as actually practiced..
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The 89th Key
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Fair enough, however I think Ivory's implication that more violence is the result of the rejection of religious values isn't definitively exclusive. He's implying that more, not all, violence is due to the lack of a faith. Had it been the latter, you would be correct...but we all know violence in the name of religion (KKK, Taliban, etc), as misguided as the respective religion might be, is still very real.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
I agree with the position that "killing in the name of religion" by people whom one might say "well, they don't really understand their religion" is in fact, killing "due to religion." You can't rationalize that away. Still, I believe that the balance is still tipped by far toward more damage caused by those who have killed with no religous intent, or in an attempt to expressly eliminate religion.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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