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| Jeb Can't Let Go | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 17 2005, 10:49 AM (518 Views) | |
| QuirtEvans | Jun 17 2005, 10:49 AM Post #1 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Gov. Bush wants probe of Schiavo collapse Friday, June 17, 2005 Posted: 12:19 PM EDT (1619 GMT) TALLAHASSEE, Florida (AP) -- Gov. Jeb Bush asked a prosecutor Friday to investigate why Terri Schiavo collapsed 15 years ago, calling into question how long it took her husband to call 911 after he found her. In a letter faxed to Pinellas-Pasco County State Attorney Bernie McCabe, Bush said Michael Schiavo testified in a 1992 medical malpractice trial that he found his wife collapsed at 5 a.m., and he said in a 2003 television interview that he found her about 4:30 a.m. He called 911 at 5:40 a.m. "Between 40 and 70 minutes elapsed before the call was made, and I am aware of no explanation for the delay," Bush wrote. "In light of this new information, I urge you to take a fresh look at this case without any preconceptions as to the outcome." Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, did not immediately return a telephone call seeking comment Friday from The Associated Press. In comments in The Miami Herald, he said Terri Schiavo would not have survived if her husband had not immediately called 911. "It's absolutely preposterous," Felos said. "If he had waited 70 minutes she would have been dead." Terri Schiavo died March 31 from dehydration after her feeding tube was disconnected at her husband's request, despite unsuccessful efforts by her parents, Bush and others to keep her alive. An autopsy released Wednesday concluded that she had been in a persistent vegetative state and revealed no evidence that she was strangled or otherwise abused before she collapsed. It left unanswered the question of why Terri Schiavo's heart stopped, cutting oxygen off from her brain. The autopsy showed she suffered irreversible brain damage and her brain had shrunk to half the normal size for her age. -------- Given the amount of public scrutiny of this case, does Jeb seriously think there's a chance to get enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt? Or is there something else going on here? |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Jolly | Jun 17 2005, 11:13 AM Post #2 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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This is a case where Jeb is standing firm for what he believes. It is not politically expedient to do so, in fact, it is politically harmful. Can the same be said for most politicians? |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| big al | Jun 17 2005, 11:22 AM Post #3 |
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Bull-Carp
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I don't see it the same way you do Jolly. If this occurred in 1992 and 2003, it would have made a lot more sense to bring it up during hearings on standing prior to Terri Schiavo's death than now. Big Al |
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Location: Western PA "jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen." -bachophile | |
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| Jolly | Jun 17 2005, 11:33 AM Post #4 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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I dunno.....on this case, I think Jeb's a true believer. He went to W, hat in hand, for this one, and pulled every string he had in the party. I think he gave up in the legal arena, but I think he's stiil fuming. Which would make him a lot like W. Bush 41 is nowhere near as fiery as either of his sons. Bush 43 (according to most things I've read) is not a person that you want to cross, politically. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| The 89th Key | Jun 17 2005, 11:44 AM Post #5 |
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What could it hurt, to explore the case? |
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| QuirtEvans | Jun 17 2005, 12:01 PM Post #6 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Other than the expense? It isn't free to investigate a case ... either it's real money, or opportunity cost, or both. More to the point, as Al said, why wasn't this investigated a lot sooner? I think Jolly's right ... Jeb's still seething and he's venting. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| The 89th Key | Jun 17 2005, 12:14 PM Post #7 |
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I'm not sure why it wasn't done sooner. But who cares about the money, when it seems there is a legit case here. The husband said Terri collapsed at 4:30, and then called 911 *70 minutes* later? There's something fishy there...worth investigating, IMO. |
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| apple | Jun 17 2005, 12:18 PM Post #8 |
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one of the angels
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how could they determine the cause of heart attach after 15 years of comatosity anyway? |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| The 89th Key | Jun 17 2005, 12:20 PM Post #9 |
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With THIS of course!! ![]()
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| KlavierBauer | Jun 17 2005, 12:21 PM Post #10 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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And what are they going to investigate? This happened over a decade ago. Let the woman rest in peace! I assure you she no longer cares about the things of this realm, and if she is our primary concern (as has been the rallying cry of all of her recuers), then let her rest in peace for crying out loud. Are you going to go after her husband with criminal charges? To what end? To whose satisfaction? None of this make sense to me. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| The 89th Key | Jun 17 2005, 12:24 PM Post #11 |
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Apparently she was resting in peace for the last 15 years...I dont see the harm in letting her stay alive for her parents sake, or for more tests to be done. No offense KB, but "resting in peace" is a good slogan, but you can't really use that to argue something, can you? |
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| KlavierBauer | Jun 17 2005, 12:27 PM Post #12 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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pretty sure I just did... She was supposed to be the focal point of all fo this... her peace, her life, her sanctity. Not her husband. So which is it? |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Jolly | Jun 17 2005, 12:34 PM Post #13 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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If they go after the husband? One word....money. Consider Jacko's recent, rather bizarre case....he may be a free man, but by most accounts, he's nearing bankruptcy. Now, by many accounts, Schiavo has access to deep pockets...but for how long? If Jeb can align the stars correctly, he can break him, or at least make sure any monies that he received for his wife are eaten up by the attorneys. It may not be right, but it is typical political hardball - Southern Style. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jun 17 2005, 12:39 PM Post #14 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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That's what I had in mind when I suggested that there were other things going on. If it were W, I would think it was pure revenge and payback. Since it's Jeb, I think it's jungle justice. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| The 89th Key | Jun 17 2005, 01:13 PM Post #15 |
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Justice, actually. |
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| Axtremus | Jun 17 2005, 08:31 PM Post #16 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Jeb is "standing firm for what he believes in" for something that is dead wrong. This country will be doomed if all politicians just stand firm for the wrong things. Jeb or some other politicians would have more credibility looking into broad ranging legislation that deals with advance directive and end-of-life issues. Going after a widower in this case is plain mean, vindictive, thug-like, and evil. Admire some one for standing firm for the right thing, fine. Admire some one for standing firm for the wrong thing, stupid. |
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| Rick Zimmer | Jun 17 2005, 08:43 PM Post #17 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Which is exactly why this little incident has lowered Jeb in my estimation several notches. I had actually thought he did OK during the Schivao mess not because I agreed with him, but because I felt he really was acting out of a moral consciousness about allowing her to die. But this latest action has nothing to do with that. This is simply pandering and revenge. Whatever respect I gained for him before is wiped out by this malicious act of revenge. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| The 89th Key | Jun 17 2005, 08:43 PM Post #18 |
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"Wrong" is a point of view. ...as is "right". But those who stand up for what they believe in get far more respect than those who float in the wind. P.S. Only Siths deal in absolutes. |
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| David Burton | Jun 17 2005, 10:54 PM Post #19 |
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Senior Carp
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From the AP:
There is no statute of limitations on murder or negligent homicide. The 89th Key:
It's obvious. KlavierBauer:
To a lot of people, a lot more than anyone who usually posts here seems to realize. Jolly:
That may be right on the money Jolly, we'll have to wait and see. Quirt:
"Revenge and payback" for whom? "Jungle justice" for whom? Axtremus:
What is that something Jeb is standing for that is dead wrong? Axtremus:
I agree. Axtremus:
Unless Jeb suspects what a lot of us out here have for quite a long time, that Mr. Schiavo is not exactly squeaky clean concerning the matter of his wife's death. Axtremus:
I suppose you never read Profiles In Courage. I should have put that book down on my list over at WTF as it did make quite an impression on me. All the stories in that book are about politicians who stood for the wrong things politically and lost. By your own standards, I admire William Jefferson Clinton for practically nothing. Rick Zimmer:
Unless Terri had been YOUR sister, or YOUR daughter. The legal precedents which could be set by this case as it presently stands are enormous. There are plenty of people out here who want to make ABSOLUTELY SURE that Terri's death was from clear natural causes. The 89th Key:
Well, one thing is for sure, those with backbone can make or save nations. The same can not be said of those with none. I do not want to get too deeply into the broader implications of any of this, just to inform those on the left who may not have any idea of the depth of the scorn the right has for them: we are SICK AND TIRED of letting people go scot free from crimes we all know they did simply because the prosecution failed to prove their case or the jurors were too star struck to do their duty. This is not justice in any measure. Every time a perpetrator goes free because some judge decides to loose them on society, and there's a good deal that goes on that should be made a crime, we cringe in terror and disgust. Our emotional reserves are stretched to the breaking point. We would almost prefer a dictator to clean it up rather than what we have had to live with for the last twenty to thirty years under the mostly liberal judiciary. Jeb is doing what he should be doing. My message is loud and clear and anyone with ears can hear: clean up the courts, give the people real justice, or face dictatorship sooner or later! |
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| Steve Miller | Jun 17 2005, 11:10 PM Post #20 |
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Bull-Carp
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Which system of justice do you propose to use once you have thrown ours out the window? |
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Wag more Bark less | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jun 18 2005, 04:53 AM Post #21 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Revenge and payback for W is a personal thing, for taking what W believes was the wrong moral stand. And for winning. W doesn't like it when the opposition wins. But remember, it's Jeb, not W, and I did say "if" it was W. Jungle justice ... I believe Jeb is after jungle justice for Terri. I think Jeb sincerely believes that Michael Schiavo should not have allowed Terri to die, and sincerely believes that Michael should not profit from Terri's predicament (i.e., insurance proceeds). So he's punishing him with the cost of defending himself against a criminal proceeding.
Actually, I can agree with that. Too many high profile celebrities and other very wealthy defendants manage to escape the consequences of their actions, and it's wrong. Unfortunately, the criminal justice system in this country tilts in favor of wealth and celebrity. I have no clue how to fix that, though. The difference here is that I don't believe Michael Schiavo did anything wrong. After all the public attention this case has received, after all the conservative investigations of Michael and all the blatantly wrong information that was put out there (anyone remember a certain post in the OCR, alleging that Michael took nursing training so he'd know how to put Terri into a coma, when he hadn't started his nursing training until several years after Terri fell into a coma?), after everything Jeb has already done, after an autopsy that found no evidence that Michael caused Terri's coma, it's highly unlikely any new evidence will come out suggesting that Michael was responsible for Terri's coma, let alone sufficient evidence to convict him.
And here's where I think you've run off the rails again. We're busy installing democracy in Iraq, but we're going to form a dictatorship here? All those star-struck jurors you're talking about ... they aren't the people? |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Jolly | Jun 18 2005, 07:15 AM Post #22 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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There's another facet to this I think y'all are overlooking... Politics, many times, is not about the exercise of real power, but about the perception of power that one has. Much like a very large man rarely ever has to physically fight...other men will not challenge him, simply because they know they will get their butts kicked. In the Schiavo case, Jeb put a lot on the line, politically. Another reason he may be going back to put a few nails in Mr. Schiavo's coffin, could be simple politics - you have to show your opposition that you are fully capable of cutting them off at the knees, if you are pushed to do so. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jun 18 2005, 07:50 AM Post #23 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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If it were W, I'd have no doubt that were part of the motive. Where Jeb is concerned, though, I have the impression that he wouldn't do that. He might allow it to be done (by a Karl Rove or a Dick Cheney, for example) ... but I don't think he'd do it himself. Jeb just doesn't seem to be as politically opportunistic or as cutthroat as his brother. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| David Burton | Jun 18 2005, 12:59 PM Post #24 |
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Senior Carp
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I asked, "Revenge and payback" for whom?" Quirt:
So you are assuming that Jeb's action is on behalf of his brother who may have told him to do it? How can you be so sure it wasn't Jeb acting on his own for his own reasons? You assume W is vengeful, why underestimate Jeb? He might be twice as vengeful as his brother. An for the record, if someone wins taking what I believe to be the wrong moral stand, I'll always remember whether I am in a position to take personal revenge or not. The difference I have with most people on the left is that for me morality is solid rock and unchanging whereas they tend to believe that what is moral is whatever they decide it is, big difference and forms the basic divide between us. I asked about "jungle justice." Quirt:
I think Jeb sincerely believes, and a lot of people out here do too, that Michael Schiavo didn't succeed in killing his wife, decided to try and save her after all and acted too late. Mr. Schiavo comes across as a typically conflicted personality, one who it is very difficult to believe. If Michael Schiavo wants to profit from his experience he can always write a book. I said, "we are SICK AND TIRED of letting people go scot free from crimes we all know they did simply because the prosecution failed to prove their case or the jurors were too star struck to do their duty. This is not justice in any measure." Quirt replied:
I do and have explained it elsewhere. The legislatures have the power to break the judicial system and remold it in any way they see fit. There is no "checks and balances:" the legislature rules, the executive serves at their behest and so does the judiciary. The legislature represents the citizens. As Mr. Franklin said, we have a republic IF WE CAN KEEP IT. The judicial system is a mockery of justice precisely because it has come loose from moral grounding. The left assumes wrongly that a strict code of morality is always tied to a particular religious belief system. There are plenty of atheists who still know what right and wrong are. Most people do know what right and wrong are too, they don't have to be coached. Quirt said:
Fine, some of us will never really be convinced. It may be that there can never be any way to prove anything one way or another. If Schiavo is truly innocent, let his write a book and try and explain himself. I know what I would have done had I discovered my wife had stopped breathing. I would have called 9-11 and tried mouth to mouth resuscitation, anything. Some of you know how close this case came to my own. We were lucky. Eleven years ago, my wife knew she was in trouble, probably dying, and so we got her to a hospital quick so they could do what they could for her until the end came. I've been there. I can't honestly assume Mr. Schiavo did the right thing at the time, and there is even the possibility that he was responsible for his wife's death. I said, "My message is loud and clear and anyone with ears can hear: clean up the courts, give the people real justice, or face dictatorship sooner or later!" Quirt said:
The average person committed to the leftist ideology assumes that anyone who doesn't see the world as they do is crazy. Finally some of us on the right are putting aside our usual preference for gentlemanly discourse and deciding to call those on the left what they have always called us; Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder. No, I was not saying that America would become a dictatorship, any more than it is already, a dictatorship of the courts. I was suggesting that if the situation with the courts wasn't cleaned up by the legislative means at our disposal that some demagogue would rise to public prominence and do it for us. You think this isn't possible? And those people on juries? Let's just pick 12 at random from the rolls of voters and that's it, no lawyer gets to throw any of them out for any reason. We'd probably have better results; convictions for OJ Simpson and Robert Blake and maybe a hung jury for Michael Jackson, since the money again proved to be more of an issue than the crimes themselves. I hear all kinds of people respond to these suggestions with, "well what happens when the wrong people get caught and sentenced to jail or worse?" I always wonder if the people asking me aren't capital criminals themselves or have close friends or relatives who are (murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc.). There's way too much sympathy for criminals and those who protect them. This too is an indication of moral decline. |
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| QuirtEvans | Jun 18 2005, 01:28 PM Post #25 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Not at all. I said "IF" it was W, I would have thought it was for a different reason. I generally believe that Jeb's motives are more honorable, even if I sometimes find him misguided. I don't believe that he would act as his brother's hatchetman, even if asked to do so, and I doubt that he'd be asked directly.
I happen to believe the opposite. Regardless, believing it is one thing. Proving it is another. As I said, there isn't really a scintilla of evidence to prove that Michael tried to kill his wife. More than a decade later, after all the investigation, after an autopsy that found absolutely nothing incriminating, after several guardians ad litem have reviewd the case from inception, the chances that there is sufficient evidence to convict Michael is way beyond slim, it's fantastically unlikely. And Jeb has to know that, which is why I believe his motive is something other than a sincere interest in seeing Michael convicted, since that just isn't going to happen. Because I have a generally positive impression of Jeb's motives, I'm assuming it's jungle justice.
I don't believe that's true. I have some close friends who've worked in the Reagan and Bush White Houses, and we have rather spirited discussions about politics. I think they are utterly wrongheaded on some issues, and they think the same about me, but I don't think they are crazy, and if they think I am crazy, they've been polite enough never to say so. As for the rest ... it's really not worth discussing. You and I have such completely different philosophies, it's as if we're trying to debate in different languages. If you can restrain yourself from snide and insulting references to my philosophy, I'll try to do likewise. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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4:19 PM Jul 10