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Dear Dr. Frist; sounds like science...
Topic Started: Jun 17 2005, 07:00 AM (287 Views)
Steve Miller
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Dear Dr. Frist,
I have a persistent ringing in my ears. My doctor tells me it might be something called Tinnitus. I was hoping for a second opinion.

Josh
New York City

Dear Josh,
Never heard of this Tinnitus. Sounds like science to me, and it’s always important to remember that science is just a theory. No, I think what you’re hearing is the Lord ringing your doorbell. It’s a wake up call, telling you that it’s time to abandon your current belief system and accept Him into your heart. I think we both know what I’m talking about, don’t we Joshua?
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I like this Frist guy! :thumb:
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Steve Miller
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Jun 17 2005, 08:11 AM
I like this Frist guy! :thumb:

Yes.

I'm sure you do.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Doctor Frist is a thoracic surgeon, and by all accounts, a fairly decent one.

If you want him to work on your ear, he'll have to crack your chest first....
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Phlebas
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Jolly
Jun 17 2005, 08:07 AM
If you want him to work on your ear...


I thought that's what proctologists did.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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The 89th Key
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You might wanna look up the definition. ;)
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Oh wait...nevermind, you don't believe in the dictionary.
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Rick Zimmer
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Jolly
Jun 17 2005, 09:07 AM
Doctor Frist is a thoracic surgeon, and by all accounts, a fairly decent one.

If you want him to work on your ear, he'll have to crack your chest first....

The good doctor has not seriously practiced medicine in years, if not a couple of decades. He made his fortune with some sort of invention, then manufacturing and selling it. A valuable conntribution, no doubt, but hardly the practice of medicine. (I could look up what the invention was, but it's beside the point).

Besides, the man diagnoses extremely serious conditions based on one video tape and a couple of phone calls. He can say it was no diagnosis, but certainly was. In fact, it was enough of a diagnosis for him to change the law! Sheesh!

That ain't the action of any ethical or qualified doctor that I know of.

I wonder what all of you Dr. Frist supporters would say if Dr. Howard Dean watched a video tape, made a couple of phone calls, and then diagnosed someone a thousand miles away. I doubt any of you would be talking about what a wonderfully competent doctor he is.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Rick Zimmer
Jun 17 2005, 09:13 AM
Jolly
Jun 17 2005, 09:07 AM
Doctor Frist is a thoracic surgeon, and by all accounts, a fairly decent one.

If you want him to work on your ear, he'll have to crack your chest first....

The good doctor has not seriously practiced medicine in years, if not a couple of decades. He made his fortune with some sort of invention, then manufacturing and selling it. A valuable conntribution, no doubt, but hardly the practice of medicine. (I could look up what the invention was, but it's beside the point).

Besides, the man diagnoses extremely serious conditions based on one video tape and a couple of phone calls. He can say it was no diagnosis, but certainly was. In fact, it was enough of a diagnosis for him to change the law! Sheesh!

That ain't the action of any ethical or qualified doctor that I know of.

I wonder what all of you Dr. Frist supporters would say if Dr. Howard Dean watched a video tape, made a couple of phone calls, and then diagnosed someone a thousand miles away. I doubt any of you would be talking about what a wonderfully competent doctor he is.

Refresh my memory, but I don't think Frist diagnosed anybody.

He did, however, look at a tape, consider some conflicting evidence, and tried to stop a death.

I think the oath still contains the words, "first, do no harm"...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Rick Zimmer
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Jolly
Jun 17 2005, 10:16 AM
Rick Zimmer
Jun 17 2005, 09:13 AM
Jolly
Jun 17 2005, 09:07 AM
Doctor Frist is a thoracic surgeon, and by all accounts, a fairly decent one.

If you want him to work on your ear, he'll have to crack your chest first....

The good doctor has not seriously practiced medicine in years, if not a couple of decades. He made his fortune with some sort of invention, then manufacturing and selling it. A valuable conntribution, no doubt, but hardly the practice of medicine. (I could look up what the invention was, but it's beside the point).

Besides, the man diagnoses extremely serious conditions based on one video tape and a couple of phone calls. He can say it was no diagnosis, but certainly was. In fact, it was enough of a diagnosis for him to change the law! Sheesh!

That ain't the action of any ethical or qualified doctor that I know of.

I wonder what all of you Dr. Frist supporters would say if Dr. Howard Dean watched a video tape, made a couple of phone calls, and then diagnosed someone a thousand miles away. I doubt any of you would be talking about what a wonderfully competent doctor he is.

Refresh my memory, but I don't think Frist diagnosed anybody.

He did, however, look at a tape, consider some conflicting evidence, and tried to stop a death.

I think the oath still contains the words, "first, do no harm"...

That may be, but I would suggest that before they even get to "do no harm" they really should start with "Know what you are talking about."

Now, if you want to say a doctor making the statement "She is not in a persistent vegetative state" is not a disagnosis, that's fine. I'll admit I am a layman in this regard, but when a doctor makes a declarative statement about the health of someone, I consider that a diagnosis.

Dr. Frist's playing with words is no different than someone else I know who answered a question with "It depends on what the definition of is is."
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Rick Zimmer
Jun 17 2005, 09:21 AM
Jolly
Jun 17 2005, 10:16 AM
Rick Zimmer
Jun 17 2005, 09:13 AM
Jolly
Jun 17 2005, 09:07 AM
Doctor Frist is a thoracic surgeon, and by all accounts, a fairly decent one.

If you want him to work on your ear, he'll have to crack your chest first....

The good doctor has not seriously practiced medicine in years, if not a couple of decades. He made his fortune with some sort of invention, then manufacturing and selling it. A valuable conntribution, no doubt, but hardly the practice of medicine. (I could look up what the invention was, but it's beside the point).

Besides, the man diagnoses extremely serious conditions based on one video tape and a couple of phone calls. He can say it was no diagnosis, but certainly was. In fact, it was enough of a diagnosis for him to change the law! Sheesh!

That ain't the action of any ethical or qualified doctor that I know of.

I wonder what all of you Dr. Frist supporters would say if Dr. Howard Dean watched a video tape, made a couple of phone calls, and then diagnosed someone a thousand miles away. I doubt any of you would be talking about what a wonderfully competent doctor he is.

Refresh my memory, but I don't think Frist diagnosed anybody.

He did, however, look at a tape, consider some conflicting evidence, and tried to stop a death.

I think the oath still contains the words, "first, do no harm"...

That may be, but I would suggest that before they even get to "do no harm" they really should start with "Know what you are talking about."

Now, if you want to say a doctor making the statement "She is not in a persistent vegetative state" is not a disagnosis, that's fine. I'll admit I am a layman in this regard, but when a doctor makes a declarative statement about the health of someone, I consider that a diagnosis.

Dr. Frist's playing with words is no different than someone else I know who answered a question with "It depends on what the definition of is is."

But is not that the crux of this matter? To know what one is talking about?

PVS, as I understand it, is diagnosed primarily through first-hand patient assessment. There were physicians who differed in their diagnosis.

Now...let us consider your left testicle (bet that got your attention)...if you have differing diagnoses from a FNB, and the options were to cut it out, or that what was seen was benign (and I've seen paths make calls with the flip of a coin), and should be left alone, wouldn't you like them to observe, "first, do no harm"?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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The 89th Key
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:lol:

Jolly is a smart man.

Nothing gets a guy's attention faster than threatening "his boys". :o
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QuirtEvans
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Quote:
 
Now...let us consider your left testicle (bet that got your attention)...if you have differing diagnoses from a FNB, and the options were to cut it out, or that what was seen was benign (and I've seen paths make calls with the flip of a coin), and should be left alone, wouldn't you like them to observe, "first, do no harm"?


Not a particularly good example, since, if left untreated and if it is cancer, you die. Maybe doing no harm means treating it as if it's an illness, to avoid even the possibility that it could metastasize.

You need an example where, absent treatment, the condition does not become worse or life-threatening.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QE, although I see what you're saying...it's Jolly's point that matters, not if his example is legit when comparing the cases.
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Rick Zimmer
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Jolly
Jun 17 2005, 11:12 AM
That may be, but I would suggest that before they even get to "do no harm" they really should start with "Know what you are talking about."

Now, if you want to say a doctor making the statement "She is not in a persistent vegetative state" is not a disagnosis, that's fine. I'll admit I am a layman in this regard, but when a doctor makes a declarative statement about the health of someone, I consider that a diagnosis.

Dr. Frist's playing with words is no different than someone else I know who answered a question with "It depends on what the definition of is is."

But is not that the crux of this matter? To know what one is talking about?

PVS, as I understand it, is diagnosed primarily through first-hand patient assessment. There were physicians who differed in their diagnosis.

Now...let us consider your left testicle (bet that got your attention)...if you have differing diagnoses from a FNB, and the options were to cut it out, or that what was seen was benign (and I've seen paths make calls with the flip of a coin), and should be left alone, wouldn't you like them to observe, "first, do no harm"? [/QUOTE]
And how this is relevant to Dr. Frist standing on the Senate floor saying that he had viewed a video and talked to a couple of doctors and delcaring/diagnosing that she was not in a persistent vegetative state -- and declaring his own expertise as a doctor as he said this to add credibility to the statement?

You are right, the crux of the matter is talking about what you know about. Dr. Frist did not KNOW about what he was talking about, and yet he rendered a diagnosis "as a Doctor" in his own words.

You see, Jolly, if he had simply said there was doubt about her state among those who had actually knew something, I would not be arguing this.

But he did not say that. He specifically stated that he had viewed the video tape, talked to a couple of doctors and that he, as a doctor, had decided she was not in a persistent vegetative state.

Now, if you want to justify this as good medical practice, that's fine. I won't argue with you on your opinion of what good medical practices are.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
No, I can admit that in his role as a physican, that without examining the patient, a correct diagnosis cannot be made...and besides, he's a surgeon, not a neuro.

Yet, he wears more than one hat. He is also a United States Senator.

Is it possible that the two personnas can combine to make a cogent argument for the preservation of this woman's life?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
QuirtEvans
Jun 17 2005, 10:32 AM
Quote:
 
Now...let us consider your left testicle (bet that got your attention)...if you have differing diagnoses from a FNB, and the options were to cut it out, or that what was seen was benign (and I've seen paths make calls with the flip of a coin), and should be left alone, wouldn't you like them to observe, "first, do no harm"?


Not a particularly good example, since, if left untreated and if it is cancer, you die. Maybe doing no harm means treating it as if it's an illness, to avoid even the possibility that it could metastasize.

You need an example where, absent treatment, the condition does not become worse or life-threatening.

Admitted.

But I was casting about for a "worst case scenario".
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Rick Zimmer
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Jolly
Jun 17 2005, 12:18 PM
No, I can admit that in his role as a physican, that without examining the patient, a correct diagnosis cannot be made...and besides, he's a surgeon, not a neuro.

Yet, he wears more than one hat. He is also a United States Senator.

Is it possible that the two personnas can combine to make a cogent argument for the preservation of this woman's life?

No doubt he has a very focused area of expertise that can be helpful.

But not if he is going to use that expertise to act unethically and outside the accepted bounds of proper behavior for doctors -- and then urge extraordinary legislation based on his unethical actions.

And it IS unethical for any doctor to make a diagnosis, especially one for as serious a situation as he diagnosed without a full examination.

This is the problem I have. Dr. Frist acted in an unethical manner and, if it were up to me, I would have the proper medical boards do a full review of his license as should be done for any egregious violation of medical ethics by a physician. Perhaps some disciplinary action is necessary. But I leave that to the proper authorities to decide.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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The 89th Key
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Rick, I agree with you.

He implied that he was making a diagnosis from his medical perspective, which was wrong.

However, I think he was using his medical background to add credibility to the statement that she might not be in a PVS and that more tests are needed before she dies. I don't have a problem with that. It wasn't harming anyone, and if anything...it could only have helped.

If he used his medical background to say she WAS in a PVS and was pushing to have her killed...then that would be unethical, but the fact that he was using his title for good (if anything) is, IMO, perfectly fine.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
And Frist was acting in the capacity of doctor for whom?

He's a politician, arguing for his point of view, not giving a diagnosis. If we ran off every politician that said something wrong, the Democrat party would vanish. Get over it.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Steve Miller
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Larry
Jun 17 2005, 01:17 PM
And Frist was acting in the capacity of doctor for whom?

He's a politician, arguing for his point of view, not giving a diagnosis. If we ran off every politician that said something wrong, the Democrat party would vanish. Get over it.

So it's OK as long as he remains Republican?
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Larry
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So it's OK as long as he remains Republican?


That's not what I said. The smears against him primarily *because* he's a republican were getting so silly someone even suggested having him brought before the medical review board, and another said his comments made him guilty of malpractice. My point is, he's a politician - he wasn't giving a medical diagnosis in the capacity of doctor to the patient, he was simply engaging in politics, just like both sides do. I don't have any confidence in most of them, regardless of which party they're in. Most of the Democrats are ideological fanatics more interested in staying in office than anything else, most of the Republicans are wimps. But going off on a leftwing fanatical tangent about malpractice or putting the man in front of a review board is just stupid.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Steve Miller
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Larry
Jun 17 2005, 07:01 PM
I don't have any confidence in most of them, regardless of which party they're in.

And on this, we agree. :thumb:
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Larry
Jun 17 2005, 10:01 PM
Quote:
 
So it's OK as long as he remains Republican?


That's not what I said. The smears against him primarily *because* he's a republican were getting so silly someone even suggested having him brought before the medical review board, and another said his comments made him guilty of malpractice. My point is, he's a politician - he wasn't giving a medical diagnosis in the capacity of doctor to the patient, he was simply engaging in politics, just like both sides do. I don't have any confidence in most of them, regardless of which party they're in. Most of the Democrats are ideological fanatics more interested in staying in office than anything else, most of the Republicans are wimps. But going off on a leftwing fanatical tangent about malpractice or putting the man in front of a review board is just stupid.

Well said! :clap:
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