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Terry Shiavo's brain was half the normal weight; Autopsy found no evidence of abuse
Topic Started: Jun 15 2005, 08:10 AM (4,311 Views)
Phlebas
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Bull-Carp
ycul
Jun 17 2005, 07:10 AM
P.S. When did they promote you to chief-in-charge-of-training-the-bedpan-cleaners btw? :D

Tsk, tsk.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Phlebas, I hate to admit my ignorance, but I don't get it.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Phlebas
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Bull-Carp
KlavierBauer
Jun 17 2005, 08:57 AM
Phlebas, I hate to admit my ignorance, but I don't get it.

Just a play on words (the Ontological Argument for the existence of God).

It was a lousy joke. Don't worry about it.

[89th, hint, the first sentence on the line above is an example me being self deprecating.]
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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ycul
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Junior Carp
QUOTE (ycul @ Jun 17 2005, 07:10 AM)
P.S. When did they promote you to chief-in-charge-of-training-the-bedpan-cleaners btw?


Phlebas:
"Tsk, tsk."

Oh come on, I was pushed. He started it. ;)
How now, brown cow.
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The 89th Key
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Phlebas
Jun 17 2005, 01:01 PM
[89th, hint, the first sentence on the line above is an example me being self deprecating.]

One of a few, lately. :cool:
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
katie
Jun 17 2005, 08:40 AM
Geez Jolly ... sit back and chill for a sec please!!!

There ARE times, like now, that you really should consider conceding and raising the flag. And inviting (or should I say *challenging*) Bach or John into battle @ days after your orignal post is just not right. Both of them are too professional and polite to involve themselves in this. It's just not fair Jolly.

Ycul's experience is valued ... she knows what she does b/c she lived it. She remembers your statement back in the OCR ... and she called you on it. If I'd been caught with a mis-statement (and I do make many of them), I would've apologised. Heck, even if I thought I were right, I would've apologised anyway. For me, it's just the right thing to do.

Nina was polite. So were others. I stayed out of it. But truly, it doesn't take an MD to pick apart some of these statements. Further, and the longer this goes on ... I'm beginning to cringe ... . And you are *so* stewing with much emotion now.

Please Jolly. I like you. So do others. Give it a rest. And I ain't saying anything more.

(This Shiavro thing has truly affected some people here. It's like a boil that's swollen and burst. There is much purulence surrounding this entire *issue* now IMHO).

I'm not challenging either Bach, or John. I'm asking them to shoot holes in what I've said within this thread. You know, as do I, that is something that is frequently done in medical circles.

Now, I'll eat crow if I have to, but I don't think I'm wrong.

I'm not saying Lucy's lying about her friend's treatment. I am saying, however, that routine chemo is not addressed as a tertiary care issue. Yes, there are some people who can, and do receive oncology treatments in-house, but that is not the norm I am familiar with.

You cannot take an isolated case, and extrapolate it for all patients.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Dammit, I hate it when I find proof that Jolly might be right. I'll bold the relevant sentence.

Quote:
 
Individual states, the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations (JCAHO), and the American College of Surgeons (ACOS) regulate oncology nursing practice and competency maintenance in inpatient and outpatient hospital settings. These agencies accredit the programs and set the requirements for standards that must be maintained. But because of the high cost of inpatient chemotherapy, chemotherapy is administered most often in outpatient centers or in private physician practices.


It's mostly about nurses, but here's the link. It's the fifth heading down.

http://onsopcontent.ons.org/Publications/S...2.2.html#story4

I'm not dismissing what your oncologist friend was saying at all, Lucy, but it appears that in the majority of cases, at least in this country, Jolly is right.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ycul
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QuirtEvans
Jun 17 2005, 06:14 PM
Dammit, I hate it when I find proof that Jolly might be right. I'll bold the relevant sentence.

Quote:
 
Individual states, the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations (JCAHO), and the American College of Surgeons (ACOS) regulate oncology nursing practice and competency maintenance in inpatient and outpatient hospital settings. These agencies accredit the programs and set the requirements for standards that must be maintained. But because of the high cost of inpatient chemotherapy, chemotherapy is administered most often in outpatient centers or in private physician practices.


It's mostly about nurses, but here's the link. It's the fifth heading down.

http://onsopcontent.ons.org/Publications/S...2.2.html#story4

I'm not dismissing what your oncologist friend was saying at all, Lucy, but it appears that in the majority of cases, at least in this country, Jolly is right.

Quirt, read the previous posts. The point is that although chemotherapy is more often given as an outpatient it is far beyond unusual for it to be administered as an inpatient Take testicular cancer for example. This was the example my oncologist friend gave me. It is the most common cancer amongst men in the 20 -34/35 age group. He *frequently* - in his words - treats this cancer with a cocktail that has to be given over a six day stay in hospital multiple times.
I'm getting bored with repeating myself here but I'll say it again, it is *not* unusual for cancer sufferers to be treated as inpatients for a variety of cancers.
How now, brown cow.
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katie
Fulla-Carp
Quirt ... you're commenting on & substantiating something that has morphed & has been twisted (Good research skills though ... like the ref) . BUT this is what ycul was trying to present as an example of how SOME people (like Jolly), make SOME statements, and that later, these statements come back as haunting reminders of EMOTIONALLY 'OVER PUFFED' CARP (Please correct me if I'm wrong lucy):

(Note: This was referenced by ycul earlier in this thread, as being stated by Jolly in the OCR):

4. Chemo, unless under highly unusual circumstances, is given on an outpatient basis. If you ain't strong enough to stay out of the hospital, you ain't strong enough for chemo.

I would certainly think, that in a socialized medical system, they wouldn't inccur a 7 day stay, for routine outpatient treatment.


If Wacky were my boyfriend ... & I were ycul ... I surely would've remembered this too!! And I too disagree with Jolly's statement above .... but .... ooops ... I'm not a MD, am I?

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
katie
Jun 17 2005, 09:30 AM
Quirt ... you're commenting & substantiating something that has morphed & has been twisted (Good research skills though ... like the ref) . BUT this is what ycul was trying to present as an example of how SOME people (like Jolly), make SOME statements, and that later, these statements come back as haunting reminders of EMOTIONALLY 'OVER PUFFED' CARP (Please correct me if I'm wrong lucy):

(Note: This was referenced by ycul earlier in this thread, as being stated by Jolly in the OCR):

4. Chemo, unless under highly unusual circumstances, is given on an outpatient basis. If you ain't strong enough to stay out of the hospital, you ain't strong enough for chemo.

I would certainly think, that in a socialized medical system, they wouldn't inccur a 7 day stay, for routine outpatient treatment.

And as a general statement, I still stand by that comment.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quirt, the question isn't about whether it's done or not... Jolly made it appear that it NEVER happens, and used that as a reason for discounting Whacky.

A quick google search will show plenty of inpatient oncology wards offering inpatient chemo under certain circumstances. While outpatient chemo is standard, inpatient chemo isn't unheard of.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Fair enough, both of you. My link talks about what most often happens; Lucy talks about what sometimes happens; and Jolly talked about what happens "unless under highly unusual circumstances". I suppose that the statement in my link could be consistent with what either Lucy or Jolly are saying.

I'm certainly not enough of an expert to know whether inpatient chemotherapy happens only under highly unusual circumstances, only rarely, or only sometimes. And I hope never to develop that expertise.

My guess would be that Jolly is mostly right, but that, as usual, he engaged in hyperbole and thus overstated his case. But, again, that's only a guess, based in part on my perception of Jolly's usual modus operandi.

Oh, and Lucy, you may have overstated too. You said "it is *not* unusual for cancer sufferers to be treated as inpatients for a variety of cancers." But what we're talking about is not cancer treatment generally, it's chemotherapy regimens in specific. I do recognize that your examples all relate to that specific issue.

The difference between you and Jolly, I suspect, is that you will immediately say, that's not what I meant, and my language may have been too broad. Jolly, on the other hand, will defend his hyperbolic language for as long as there's an internet.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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katie
Fulla-Carp
.... And once again , a resurrected thread concerning a heated issue, has resurfaced, morphed, been side tracked & has spilled its purulence all over the CR members' computer screens ...

Whatever ...

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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
.... And once again , a resurrected thread concerning a heated issue, has resurfaced, morphed, been side tracked & has spilled its purulence all over the CR members' computer screens ...

Whatever ...


Only those with the insatiable desire to keep clicking on it! :)
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
QuirtEvans
Jun 17 2005, 09:45 AM
Fair enough, both of you. My link talks about what most often happens; Lucy talks about what sometimes happens; and Jolly talked about what happens "unless under highly unusual circumstances". I suppose that the statement in my link could be consistent with what either Lucy or Jolly are saying.

I'm certainly not enough of an expert to know whether inpatient chemotherapy happens only under highly unusual circumstances, only rarely, or only sometimes. And I hope never to develop that expertise.

My guess would be that Jolly is mostly right, but that, as usual, he engaged in hyperbole and thus overstated his case. But, again, that's only a guess, based in part on my perception of Jolly's usual modus operandi.

Oh, and Lucy, you may have overstated too. You said "it is *not* unusual for cancer sufferers to be treated as inpatients for a variety of cancers." But what we're talking about is not cancer treatment generally, it's chemotherapy regimens in specific. I do recognize that your examples all relate to that specific issue.

The difference between you and Jolly, I suspect, is that you will immediately say, that's not what I meant, and my language may have been too broad. Jolly, on the other hand, will defend his hyperbolic language for as long as there's an internet.

Not really.

Perhaps it is like the old story about a general....when his troops told him to give give the other side Hell, he said he wasn't, but that what he was doing would make them think it was Hell.

In this argument, I am not engaged in hyperbole. I'm simply stating the facts as I know them. If you'd like, I can retract the word "highly" from my original OCR statement. IME, however, such treatment for most patients is unusual. If viewed within the context of the times, when we were battling what seemed like an overabundance of sockpuppets, even the most ardent admirers of Wacky would have to admit he entered the OCR in somewhat non-routine fashion.

After a PM, or two, I took the gentleman at his word, and admitted I was wrong about his existence.

Yet, I do not actually know Wacky, as most of us do not actually know each other. JBryan and TomK once agreed that we were all sockpuppets, that belonged to one, or the other.

For all I know, they may have been right......
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Just found this interesting ...
I was reading about lymphoma and the most common chemo regimes used in treating it.

One of the more agressive treatments, DHAP (Dexamethasone, High dose Ara-C, and Cisplatin) seems to frequently involve a 3-4 day hospital stay. This is listed as one of the more "common" lymphoma chemo regimes. It is also frequently used as part of the prepratory regimen for a Stem Cell Transplant.
I noticed many treatments using Cisplatin requiring inpatient stays.
And interestingly (and the reason I was reading about it in the first place) nephrotoxicity.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly, I agree with what you're saying, and I remember questioning Whacky as well....

I hope you don't think I'm questioning your integrity, you're stubborn as a mule, but one of the few whose information I tend to trust.

I just couldn't stay out of the medical controversy! :)
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Phlebas
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Bull-Carp
The 89th Key
Jun 17 2005, 09:03 AM
Phlebas
Jun 17 2005, 01:01 PM
[89th, hint, the first sentence on the line above is an example me being self deprecating.]

One of a few, lately. :cool:

Like I said, I think you need to look it up. :rolleyes2:
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
He doesn't need to look it up, he has the entire dictionary memorized! :)

... I'm surprised you didn't know that phlebas... how emarassing.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Phlebas
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Bull-Carp
KlavierBauer
Jun 17 2005, 10:14 AM


... I'm surprised you didn't know that phlebas... how emarassing.

Time for another self-deprecating ramark.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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The 89th Key
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A common mistake KB. :wink:

...happens all the time. :cool:
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The 89th Key
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Phlebas
Jun 17 2005, 02:28 PM
KlavierBauer
Jun 17 2005, 10:14 AM


... I'm surprised you didn't know that phlebas... how emarassing.

Time for another self-deprecating ramark.

KB is a cool cat in my book Phlebe...he'll admit when he's wrong, even though that's rare if ever (wrong, that is).

You on the other hand... :whistle:
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Being the only one here who is currently under the watchful eye of an oncology team (as far as I know I'm the only one here, if someone else is, let me know), and because I have for the last 2 years been under their watch, spent a fair amount of time with the doctors, nurses, and other staff members during that 2 year period, I feel I can speak quite directly to this.

First, as June is my 2 year anniversary from cancer surgery, and I just had my latest round of MRIs and CT scans, blood work, etc., I'm happy to announce that all tests came back normal, fine, perfect......... the doctors told me the other day that I have the constitution of a horse...... (and I know..... some of you think I have the brains of a horse too, so I'll say it for you and save you the time..... ;-) ) No signs of cancer anywhere.

Now - since I had read this thread and knew of the disagreements going on in it, I decided to ask my oncologists about this.

Jolly is dead on correct.

Here is what I was told, by a team of 5 oncologists, all of them in agreement:

1. It is rare for anyone to have to be hospitalized for chemotherapy.
2. Most treatment is done in specialized private facilities, and rarely do any of them have the facilities for inpatient treatment.
3. With today's level of sophistication in treatment, there is little need for most people to be hospitalized in the first place, unless they have other problems that must be addressed during treatment.
4. Quote "what kind of backwoods treatment is your friend being given that required him to be hospitalized for 2 months straight?"


I am fortunate enough to live only about 40 minutes from one of the finest cancer treatment facilities in the country, with an impeccable reputation. They are on the cutting edge in cancer treatment, and I know from 2 years of dealing with them that they know their stuff.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
KlavierBauer
Jun 17 2005, 10:11 AM
Just found this interesting ...
I was reading about lymphoma and the most common chemo regimes used in treating it.

One of the more agressive treatments, DHAP (Dexamethasone, High dose Ara-C, and Cisplatin) seems to frequently involve a 3-4 day hospital stay. This is listed as one of the more "common" lymphoma chemo regimes. It is also frequently used as part of the prepratory regimen for a Stem Cell Transplant.
I noticed many treatments using Cisplatin requiring inpatient stays.
And interestingly (and the reason I was reading about it in the first place) nephrotoxicity.

Lots of things can whack out the kidneys, even aminoglycosides. I'm not going to pretend expertise with the actual cocktails used in chemo, it's not my field. I do think that M.D. Anderson is one of the best oncology treatment sites in our part of the world, and I would recommend it.

Speaking of nephron-related matters....how's the kidney list coming?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
and I know..... some of you think I have the brains of a horse too, so I'll say it for you and save you the time..... ;-)


Please don't feed me straight lines. This one's too easy.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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