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Terry Shiavo's brain was half the normal weight; Autopsy found no evidence of abuse
Topic Started: Jun 15 2005, 08:10 AM (4,305 Views)
Jeffrey
Senior Carp
JB - I'll make this quick. You said " I don't know if Larry siad what you claim he said or not."

Now this was *after* I had completely and repeatedly quoted Larry saying exactly what I said he did, just making stuff on on Schiavo to prove his point. So for you to continue your comments of "Find it" and "Apparently it does not exist", *after* I gave you the evidence in plain English, is fundamentally dishonest, and a clear example of you just making stuff up.

There is a good parallel here to the original Schiavo discussions. There, also, clear and overwhelming scientific evidence was given on Terri's condition and her mental state. Yet you kept saying the issue was unclear, and we should delay to investigate it further, etc etc. But it was clear that *no* scientific evidence would change your mind or satisfy you, or any of the other fundy nutcases that made this a national issue and violated Terri's dignity and privacy.

Here also, absolutely certain evidence was presented as to Larry's comments, but all you could manage was "I don't know if Larry said" exactly what I just quoted him repeatedly as saying.

It is pointless to discuss with someone, like you, who posts only to try to confuse the issue with "I don't know" even with the plain evidence staring him in the face, quoted repeatedly.

I have proven my point. You (and Larry and whoever) may have the last post on this topic if you must.
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The 89th Key
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QuirtEvans
Jun 19 2005, 08:01 PM
Quote:
 
Therefore, we don't know what Terri really said, if anything at all. See what I'm saying?


Of course I do. But now distinguish that from the several thousand criminal defendants who go to jail every day of the week based on oral testimony of witnesses. We can't really know whether they did the crime, can we? So should they go free, if the evidence is limited to oral testimony?

Note: I am NOT saying that every criminal case is always decided on oral testimony alone. But, in a good number of cases ... ranging from felonies like armed robbery or date rape to traffic offenses like running a red light ... the only evidence available will be oral testimony of witnesses.

What you're saying is, we can never know for sure. In any he said/she said date rape case, we can never know what really happened. So, should we let every date rape defendant free, if the main evidence is based on oral testimony?

Of course not. We don't know for sure, but we're sure enough to send someone to prison for 20 years.

You're just cheesed about the Terri Schiavo case. It's an elementary principle of law that hard cases make bad law. So don't extrapolate general principles out of the Schiavo case, you'll only get yourself and everyone else in trouble.

I actually agree with everything you're saying QE, don't get me wrong.

I do agree that the court found enough credible testimony to determine that Terri said what she said...they had to be sure enough to allow her death - which would mean the court was VERY sure.

Perhaps it's because I wish it weren't true...or that I don't believe a word the husband says...but I personally am not convinced that she said it. I admit from my perspective, I'm influenced by my own "wants". I'm not sure what point I'm making here, if any....maybe just that I personally don't believe she said it enough to legalize her death. Which I'm sure you can understand, even though you dont agree.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Jeffrey,

You are full of crap. Clearly you had not provided any proof of Larry's statement at the time I made those remarks. As far as I am concerned, you still have not. You have provided one non-functional link. I can see that this is pointless and that I am arguing intellectual integrity with one who holds no particular allegiance to the truth.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
It is pointless to discuss with someone, like you, who posts only to try to confuse the issue with "I don't know" even with the plain evidence staring him in the face, quoted repeatedly.


For what it's worth, I've never found JB to behave that way. There are some people around here who are glued so tightly to their viewpoint that they won't acknowledge a contrary fact, but he isn't one of them, as far as I can tell.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I'll simply make this point. No one better understands what you are trying to say better than the person who is saying it. Our mind forms a thought, and we use language to convey that thought to others. To nitpick someone over the improper use of a word when they have already repeatedly clarified the intent behind it is ridiculous. The only thing I did that gave Jeffrey any ammunition at all was mistakenly use the word "ancestor" when I should have used "namesake". Had I realized when I wrote the post that I would not be allowed to clarify my thought after confusing some by using the wrong word to convey my thoughts, I'd have taken a little more time to word the post.

In a nutshell, I knew what I was trying to say, and I cleared up the confusion in the very next post afterward, so that should have been the end of it. I think it was, as far as the folks who don't have some sort of ax to grind.



Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
This would have been a lot less of an issue, Larry, if you'd just said, yes I said it, but I used the wrong word, instead of trying to say that you never said it (when what you meant was that you might have said it, but never meant it).
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
Larry
Jun 19 2005, 05:28 PM
I'll simply make this point. No one better understands what you are trying to say better than the person who is saying it. Our mind forms a thought, and we use language to convey that thought to others. To nitpick someone over the improper use of a word when they have already repeatedly clarified the intent behind it is ridiculous. The only thing I did that gave Jeffrey any ammunition at all was mistakenly use the word "ancestor" when I should have used "namesake". Had I realized when I wrote the post that I would not be allowed to clarify my thought after confusing some by using the wrong word to convey my thoughts, I'd have taken a little more time to word the post.

In a nutshell, I knew what I was trying to say, and I cleared up the confusion in the very next post afterward, so that should have been the end of it. I think it was, as far as the folks who don't have some sort of ax to grind.

You simply used "ancestor" instead of "namesake" . The only problem with this is that anyone who is gullible enough to believe it, immediately champions you as winner of the stupidest person thread. Which puts you in a difficult position really...............moron or liar.......OUCH! :shrug:
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Wacki Iraqi
Jun 20 2005, 05:03 AM
Larry
Jun 19 2005, 05:28 PM
I'll simply make this point. No one better understands what you are trying to say better than the person who is saying it. Our mind forms a thought, and we use language to convey that thought to others. To nitpick someone over the improper use of a word when they have already repeatedly clarified the intent behind it is ridiculous. The only thing I did that gave Jeffrey any ammunition at all was mistakenly use the word "ancestor" when I should have used "namesake".  Had I realized when I wrote the post that I would not be allowed to clarify my thought after confusing some by using the wrong word to convey my thoughts, I'd have taken a little more time to word the post.

In a nutshell, I knew what I was trying to say, and I cleared up the confusion in the very next post afterward, so that should have been the end of it. I think it was, as far as the folks who don't have some sort of ax to grind.

You simply used "ancestor" instead of "namesake" . The only problem with this is that anyone who is gullible enough to believe it, immediately champions you as winner of the stupidest person thread. Which puts you in a difficult position really...............moron or liar.......OUCH! :shrug:

Is this your day to crawl out of the woodwork and attack people?

Or do you have something cogent to add to this discussion?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
Jolly
Jun 20 2005, 06:06 AM

Is this your day to crawl out of the woodwork and attack people?

Or do you have something cogent to add to this discussion? [/QUOTE]
Yep!
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Wacki Iraqi
Jun 20 2005, 06:14 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:06 AM

Is this your day to crawl out of the woodwork and attack people?

Or do you have something cogent to add to this discussion?

Yep! [/QUOTE]
Thank you.

My opinion of you is starting to set in concrete.

Have a nice day.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
I haven't read this thread, I don't have time to read this thread, so I'm not going to. I'm just going to say

[size=14]Knock it off![/size]

You guys are all acting like a bunch of teenage boys that just drank their first beer. You're doing nothing but damagiong your worthwhile reputations. Do yourselves and the rest of the fora a favor and drop it. Now.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
Jolly
Jun 20 2005, 06:18 AM
Wacki Iraqi,Jun 20 2005
06:14 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:06 AM

Is this your day to crawl out of the woodwork and attack people?

Or do you have something cogent to add to this discussion?

Yep!

Thank you.

My opinion of you is starting to set in concrete.

Have a nice day. [/QUOTE]
Like your brain. Now go away and talk to somebody else, maybe somebody who likes you. We have no time for each other and have finished with the high school bully routine so let it lie and so will i.
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
QuirtEvans
Jun 19 2005, 05:55 PM
This would have been a lot less of an issue, Larry, if you'd just said, yes I said it, but I used the wrong word, instead of trying to say that you never said it (when what you meant was that you might have said it, but never meant it).

Quirt, that's exactly what I've been saying all along. I just didn't have the word "namesake" come to mind until someone else in this thread mentioned it.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
Luke's Dad
Jun 20 2005, 06:18 AM
I haven't read this thread, I don't have time to read this thread, so I'm not going to. I'm just going to say

[size=14]Knock it off![/size]

You guys are all acting like a bunch of teenage boys that just drank their first beer. You're doing nothing but damagiong your worthwhile reputations. Do yourselves and the rest of the fora a favor and drop it. Now.

Sorry Darth but this issue just won't quit until the lying stops. Then i'm sure good cheer will prevail again. :wink:
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Wacki Iraqi
Jun 20 2005, 06:23 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:18 AM
Wacki Iraqi,Jun 20 2005
06:14 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:06 AM

Is this your day to crawl out of the woodwork and attack people?

Or do you have something cogent to add to this discussion?

Yep!

Thank you.

My opinion of you is starting to set in concrete.

Have a nice day.

Like your brain. Now go away and talk to somebody else, maybe somebody who likes you. We have no time for each other and have finished with the high school bully routine so let it lie and so will i. [/QUOTE]
Why don't you try the Pity Party routine? It's worked before.

Love me, I have cancer. :hearts:

You know what, Jacko? You ever been around some of the bravest of the cancer victims? The kids that have cancer? The ones staring death in the face?

The ones that just want to be kids, and the only time they make a fuss about their illness is when it gets in the way of something that they want to do?

I've been around sick folks most of my adult life. Most of them are brave, courageous souls, who probably would be ashamed to wander onto a general internet forum such as this, or the OCR, and even mention the disease, except in passing.

Go cry on somebody else's shoulder mate, or grow some testicles. A large part of living well, is dying well. It happens to all of us.

Suck it up, and soldier. :puke:
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
Jolly
Jun 20 2005, 06:29 AM
Wacki Iraqi,Jun 20 2005
06:23 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:18 AM
Wacki Iraqi,Jun 20 2005
06:14 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:06 AM

Is this your day to crawl out of the woodwork and attack people?

Or do you have something cogent to add to this discussion?

Yep!

Thank you.

My opinion of you is starting to set in concrete.

Have a nice day.

Like your brain. Now go away and talk to somebody else, maybe somebody who likes you. We have no time for each other and have finished with the high school bully routine so let it lie and so will i.

Why don't you try the Pity Party routine? It's worked before.

Love me, I have cancer. :hearts:

You know what, Jacko? You ever been around some of the bravest of the cancer victims? The kids that have cancer? The ones staring death in the face?

The ones that just want to be kids, and the only time they make a fuss about their illness is when it gets in the way of something that they want to do?

I've been around sick folks most of my adult life. Most of them are brave, courageous souls, who probably would be ashamed to wander onto a general internet forum such as this, or the OCR, and even mention the disease, except in passing.

Go cry on somebody else's shoulder mate, or grow some testicles. A large part of living well, is dying well. It happens to all of us.

Suck it up, and soldier. :puke: [/QUOTE]
Cheers, yes actually, my son fought cancer for 6 years from the age of 2. Got anything to say about that big foot.
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
Poor Jolly, how could he know. Jolly doesn't this just go to prove about your level of humanity. You've made a sorry mess for yourself with me and all because you've assumed so much and know so verry little i can't get angry with you because i truly believe you've been hurt a lot and don't know how to contain your own sorrow. I'm sure most people even on this forum can tell this about you and throw you a line. But as i say be of good cheer and try not to assume too much in future. I just hope this can be a lesson you couldn't ignore, because if you are as some people have suggested, it's all good. C ya.
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Wacki Iraqi
Jun 20 2005, 06:42 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:29 AM
Wacki Iraqi,Jun 20 2005
06:23 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:18 AM
Wacki Iraqi,Jun 20 2005
06:14 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:06 AM

Is this your day to crawl out of the woodwork and attack people?

Or do you have something cogent to add to this discussion?

Yep!

Thank you.

My opinion of you is starting to set in concrete.

Have a nice day.

Like your brain. Now go away and talk to somebody else, maybe somebody who likes you. We have no time for each other and have finished with the high school bully routine so let it lie and so will i.

Why don't you try the Pity Party routine? It's worked before.

Love me, I have cancer. :hearts:

You know what, Jacko? You ever been around some of the bravest of the cancer victims? The kids that have cancer? The ones staring death in the face?

The ones that just want to be kids, and the only time they make a fuss about their illness is when it gets in the way of something that they want to do?

I've been around sick folks most of my adult life. Most of them are brave, courageous souls, who probably would be ashamed to wander onto a general internet forum such as this, or the OCR, and even mention the disease, except in passing.

Go cry on somebody else's shoulder mate, or grow some testicles. A large part of living well, is dying well. It happens to all of us.

Suck it up, and soldier. :puke:

Cheers, yes actually, my son fought cancer for 6 years from the age of 2. Got anything to say about that big foot. [/QUOTE]
Yep.

I hope that he exhibited more grace with his ordeal than you have exhibited with yours. This is a conversation that I would not bring my children into, and I think it shines a spotlight onto your personality.

You see, I've said that I'm around sick people most of the time. I speak to them, as I would anyone else - I think that is what they crave most - a little bit of normalcy in an otherwise very unpleasant existence.

All the little generalities of normal human interaction apply...both good and bad.

I'm sorry that you are ill. I'm sorry that your children have suffered. But everybody has their own personal crosses to bear. I have mine, as do others.

I just don't like to enjoin the pity of a public media to soothe my ego.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Jun 20 2005, 10:49 AM


I just don't like to enjoin the pity of a public media to soothe my ego.

In all fairness, Jolly, I hadn't seen Wacki do that. I've often shared my trials here. Not for pity but for support. This forum has been very therapeutic and has helped me with my turmoils tremendously. If someone else wants to share their trials I'm all for giving them my prayers and support.
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
Jolly
Jun 20 2005, 06:49 AM
Wacki Iraqi,Jun 20 2005
06:42 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:29 AM
Wacki Iraqi,Jun 20 2005
06:23 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:18 AM
Wacki Iraqi,Jun 20 2005
06:14 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:06 AM

Is this your day to crawl out of the woodwork and attack people?

Or do you have something cogent to add to this discussion?

Yep!

Thank you.

My opinion of you is starting to set in concrete.

Have a nice day.

Like your brain. Now go away and talk to somebody else, maybe somebody who likes you. We have no time for each other and have finished with the high school bully routine so let it lie and so will i.

Why don't you try the Pity Party routine? It's worked before.

Love me, I have cancer. :hearts:

You know what, Jacko? You ever been around some of the bravest of the cancer victims? The kids that have cancer? The ones staring death in the face?

The ones that just want to be kids, and the only time they make a fuss about their illness is when it gets in the way of something that they want to do?

I've been around sick folks most of my adult life. Most of them are brave, courageous souls, who probably would be ashamed to wander onto a general internet forum such as this, or the OCR, and even mention the disease, except in passing.

Go cry on somebody else's shoulder mate, or grow some testicles. A large part of living well, is dying well. It happens to all of us.

Suck it up, and soldier. :puke:

Cheers, yes actually, my son fought cancer for 6 years from the age of 2. Got anything to say about that big foot.

Yep.

I hope that he exhibited more grace with his ordeal than you have exhibited with yours. This is a conversation that I would not bring my children into, and I think it shines a spotlight onto your personality.

You see, I've said that I'm around sick people most of the time. I speak to them, as I would anyone else - I think that is what they crave most - a little bit of normalcy in an otherwise very unpleasant existence.

All the little generalities of normal human interaction apply...both good and bad.

I'm sorry that you are ill. I'm sorry that your children have suffered. But everybody has their own personal crosses to bear. I have mine, as do others.

I just don't like to enjoin the pity of a public media to soothe my ego. [/QUOTE]
Thats amazingly patronizing. How can you spout poison with one breath and then try to cover it all up when you make a massive boo boo with some little sentence about how caring you are, incredible. Everyone knows Jolly the only reason my cancer is such a big issue, is because you've made it so. I fought my cancer and so did my son and we beat it, you wouldn't know what that's like so don't pretend and try to use it against me or my son. And as for dragging a child into this debate lets read back to the origin ok? Stop digging and find a real way out of this God awful mess you've made for everyone, it's really unpleasant for everyone to have to endure AGAIN.
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Wacki Iraqi
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Senior Carp
justme
Jun 20 2005, 06:57 AM
Jolly
Jun 20 2005, 10:49 AM


I just don't like to enjoin the pity of a public media to soothe my ego.

In all fairness, Jolly, I hadn't seen Wacki do that. I've often shared my trials here. Not for pity but for support. This forum has been very therapeutic and has helped me with my turmoils tremendously. If someone else wants to share their trials I'm all for giving them my prayers and support.

Justme, you were one of many people that wished me well and that i can honestly say helped me through a nasty time. But i fear it is for this and the reasons you gave in your post that have got Jolly and Larry spitting the stuff they have. I'd like to see a thread i contributed to where i requested pity.
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
Stop digging and find a real way out of this God awful mess you've made for everyone, it's really unpleasant for everyone to have to endure AGAIN.


I'm sorry Peggy, but I just cannot let this pass without comment.

The one that has made a mess is you, Wacky. We are enduring this because of *you*. Jolly isn't the one who "breathed poison in one breath and then tried to cover up a boo-boo" - *you* are.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Wacki Iraqi
Member Avatar
Senior Carp
Wacki Iraqi
Jun 20 2005, 06:42 AM

Why don't you try the Pity Party routine? It's worked before.

Love me, I have cancer. :hearts:

You know what, Jacko? You ever been around some of the bravest of the cancer victims? The kids that have cancer? The ones staring death in the face?

The ones that just want to be kids, and the only time they make a fuss about their illness is when it gets in the way of something that they want to do?

I've been around sick folks most of my adult life. Most of them are brave, courageous souls, who probably would be ashamed to wander onto a general internet forum such as this, or the OCR, and even mention the disease, except in passing.

Go cry on somebody else's shoulder mate, or grow some testicles. A large part of living well, is dying well. It happens to all of us.

Suck it up, and soldier. :puke: [/QUOTE]
Cheers, yes actually, my son fought cancer for 6 years from the age of 2. Got anything to say about that big foot. [/QUOTE]
Wow, i read that post again, it's really sick. Why would you do that?
You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Wacki Iraqi
Jun 20 2005, 07:04 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:49 AM
Wacki Iraqi,Jun 20 2005
06:42 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:29 AM
Wacki Iraqi,Jun 20 2005
06:23 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:18 AM
Wacki Iraqi,Jun 20 2005
06:14 AM
Jolly,Jun 20 2005
06:06 AM

Is this your day to crawl out of the woodwork and attack people?

Or do you have something cogent to add to this discussion?

Yep!

Thank you.

My opinion of you is starting to set in concrete.

Have a nice day.

Like your brain. Now go away and talk to somebody else, maybe somebody who likes you. We have no time for each other and have finished with the high school bully routine so let it lie and so will i.

Why don't you try the Pity Party routine? It's worked before.

Love me, I have cancer. :hearts:

You know what, Jacko? You ever been around some of the bravest of the cancer victims? The kids that have cancer? The ones staring death in the face?

The ones that just want to be kids, and the only time they make a fuss about their illness is when it gets in the way of something that they want to do?

I've been around sick folks most of my adult life. Most of them are brave, courageous souls, who probably would be ashamed to wander onto a general internet forum such as this, or the OCR, and even mention the disease, except in passing.

Go cry on somebody else's shoulder mate, or grow some testicles. A large part of living well, is dying well. It happens to all of us.

Suck it up, and soldier. :puke:

Cheers, yes actually, my son fought cancer for 6 years from the age of 2. Got anything to say about that big foot.

Yep.

I hope that he exhibited more grace with his ordeal than you have exhibited with yours. This is a conversation that I would not bring my children into, and I think it shines a spotlight onto your personality.

You see, I've said that I'm around sick people most of the time. I speak to them, as I would anyone else - I think that is what they crave most - a little bit of normalcy in an otherwise very unpleasant existence.

All the little generalities of normal human interaction apply...both good and bad.

I'm sorry that you are ill. I'm sorry that your children have suffered. But everybody has their own personal crosses to bear. I have mine, as do others.

I just don't like to enjoin the pity of a public media to soothe my ego.

Thats amazingly patronizing. How can you spout poison with one breath and then try to cover it all up when you make a massive boo boo with some little sentence about how caring you are, incredible. Everyone knows Jolly the only reason my cancer is such a big issue, is because you've made it so. I fought my cancer and so did my son and we beat it, you wouldn't know what that's like so don't pretend and try to use it against me or my son. And as for dragging a child into this debate lets read back to the origin ok? Stop digging and find a real way out of this God awful mess you've made for everyone, it's really unpleasant for everyone to have to endure AGAIN. [/QUOTE]
No sir,

This has turned personal, mainly because your girlfriend got her knockers in a knot because somebody disagreed with her.

We can discuss issues, or we can pull out the knives.

When two grown men fight, both are going to get hurt. But there are some fights that one just cannot walk away from...it's your call.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
Can't we just all meet here and have a beer together?

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"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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